Type 1 vs Type 2 Changes
Type 1 vs Type 2 Changes, a guide for a sustainable and innovative company! – “6 Min. to understand” with Pierre Léonard. Midoricast: Podcast #225
Today, we welcome Pierre Léonard, a sustainable development facilitator. He explains a crucial distinction for any company that wants to thrive in a rapidly changing world: type 1 changes vs. type 2 changes.
Pierre Léonard explains how:
- type 1 change corresponds to an adjustment of the existing system,
- type 2 change deeply transforms the very logic of the company, to create new markets and a sustainable advantage.
During the episode, a moment particularly struck me: I mention neurodiversity and the proportion of people concerned but admit I’m not sure about the figure I state. After checking, it is about 20% of the population (though this figure is probably underestimated because many practice masking). This small detail perfectly illustrates the topic: we tend to underestimate the wealth of singularities, even though they represent huge potential to transform organizations.
Share your experiences in the comments:
- How do you distinguish a superficial change from a deep transformation?
- How do you value atypical talents and singularities in your teams?
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Why this section?
We support companies applying real and measurable ESG (Environmental, Social, Governance) approaches. Pierre, himself, trains and supports them towards this transition. Our approaches are different but complementary: we encourage, he accompanies.
This choice also poses a real challenge: where to draw the line?
Some companies cited in this section do not align with our current criteria, and we would refuse any collaboration with them as long as they do not initiate concrete change. But this is precisely where Pierre steps in: his role is to initiate this transformation.
This podcast does not seek to judge, but to inspire. The goal? To encourage rather than discourage, accompany rather than exclude.
Let’s commit together to a circular, sustainable, and inclusive economy. Listening, reflection, action… in 6 minutes.
Listen to this podcast type 1 vs type 2 changes via our YouTube channel (subscribe: thank you!):
French: The full transcript of this podcast is provided as subtitles in five languages: French, Dutch, German, English, and Spanish.
Dutch: De volledige transcriptie van deze podcast is beschikbaar als ondertiteling van de video in vijf talen: Frans, Nederlands, Duits, Engels en Spaans.
German: Die vollständige Transkription dieses Podcasts ist als Untertitel des Videos in fünf Sprachen verfügbar: Französisch, Niederländisch, Deutsch, Englisch und Spanisch.
English: The full transcript of this podcast is available as video subtitles in five languages: French, Dutch, German, English, and Spanish.
Spanish: La transcripción completa de este pódcast está disponible como subtítulos del vídeo en cinco idiomas: français, neerlandais, allemand, anglais y español
Podcast sequencing type 1 vs type 2 changes:
- [00:00:02] Type 1 vs Type 2 Changes: Introduction
- [00:00:12] Two fundamentally different types of changes
- [00:00:54] Type 1 vs Type 2 Changes
- [00:01:33] Why is it important and how does it concern you?
- [00:01:44] Type 1 changes are no longer enough
- [00:02:29] Resistance to changes
- [00:02:50] Advantages of type 2 change
- [00:03:19] Risks of type 2 change
- [00:03:36] Risks of type 1 change
- [00:04:02] Investing in a type 2 change
- [00:04:28] An example to illustrate
- [00:04:51] How to put this approach into practice?
- [00:05:16] Neurodiversity: a strength
- [00:05:44] Identifying negative externalities
- [00:06:12] Type 1 vs Type 2 Changes: Conclusion
- [00:06:30] Leaders as an example
- [00:06:38] Announcement of the next topic
- [00:06:49] Episode closure and thanks to sponsors and partners
Transcript of the podcast type 1 vs type 2 changes:
Jingle Intro: [00:00:00] Your are listening to “The Podcast Factory Org”.
Michel: [00:00:02] Welcome to another episode of Midoricast, your podcast on positive environmental initiatives. And we’re in the “6 Minutes Pour Comprendre” section, dear listeners, with Pierre Léonard.
Pierre Léonard: [00:00:12] Yes, hello Michel, hello everyone! Pierre Léonard, your sustainability facilitator for the podcast that explains everything you always wanted to know about sustainability but were afraid to ask. And today, I wanted to talk to you about a subject that’s very close to my heart, because it’s fundamental for all businesses that want to prosper: the two types of change and their applications in the field of sustainability. Why? Well, because when we talk about change in business, we often tend to lump everything together. Yet there are two fundamentally different types of change. These are known as Type 1 and Type 2 changes.
Pierre Léonard: [00:00:54] Type 1 change is like adjusting the temperature on your thermostat. You modify something in the existing system, but without questioning the system itself. Type 2 changeover, on the other hand, is like switching from gas heating to solar energy: you completely transform the very logic of the system. In concrete terms, a Type 1 change might be to optimize your production processes to reduce costs, and a Type 2 change would be to completely rethink your business model to incorporate the circular economy. And dear Michel, guess which type of change is dearest to my heart?
Michel: [00:01:32] The second, of course.
Pierre Léonard: [00:01:33] Type 2 change, of course. So I can already hear some of you asking me why this difference is so important, and what does it have to do with me?
Michel: [00:01:42] Yes, that’s true, it’s a question we ask ourselves.
Pierre Léonard: [00:01:44] Well, this distinction is crucial because we’re living in a time of transformation and major ecological, technological and digital transition, but also the evolution of societal expectations with the ESG we talked about earlier. In the face of these systemic challenges, Type 1 changes are no longer enough. It’s as if, in the 80s, we really wanted to spend all our time redesigning a typewriter while the whole world adopted the computer. Today, companies that are content with superficial adjustments at the margins run the risk of becoming obsolete very quickly, while those that dare to make profound transformations create new markets and redefine their business sector.
Michel: [00:02:29] So, I’m interrupting you, but there are some people who will say “Yes, but you know Pierre, certain basics are immutable”. This was true for a long time, except that now, the acceleration of change is so strong that you can no longer hold on to these certainties. You have to be able to question even the basics.
Pierre Léonard: [00:02:44] I couldn’t have said it better myself, the “We’ve always done it this way” is really out of date.
Michel: [00:02:48] That’s no longer an argument, no.
Pierre Léonard: [00:02:50] And so, this type 2 change has many advantages and its benefits are considerable. Firstly, you create a robust competitive advantage because your competitors won’t necessarily be able to copy this systemic transformation overnight. Secondly, you anticipate regulatory developments and societal expectations, rather than being subjected to them. And third, you’ll attract top talent who want to work for visionary companies.
Pierre Léonard: [00:03:19] Now there are risks too. Type 2 change requires more courage, more time and may create more internal resistance: the famous “We’ve always done it this way”. It’s like learning to fly when you can walk. It’s destabilizing, but the horizons that open up are incomparable.
Pierre Léonard: [00:03:36] On the other hand, sticking to type-one change exposes you to the risk of disruption by players who don’t hesitate to rethink everything. This is not to say that Type 1 change is worthless; on the contrary, it is often the start of a more profound transformation, notably by enabling mentalities to evolve. We see that it works, so we’re open to more structural change.
Pierre Léonard: [00:04:02] Investing in a Type 2 change does represent a higher cost, initially, but if we relate all this to sustainable development and look at the figures, we see that companies that have embraced the circular economy generate on average 20% more revenue than others. And it’s not me saying it. That’s from an Accenture study. Those who have transformed their supply chain to make it sustainable reduce their operating costs by 15-20%.
Pierre Léonard: [00:04:28] If we take the example of interface, a carpet manufacturer that has revolutionized its model, they have not only achieved carbon neutrality, they have also reduced their production costs while creating new revenue streams through recycling.
Michel: [00:04:39] I’m encouraged by all your examples.
Pierre Léonard: [00:04:41] And that’s the magic of Type 2 change, in sustainable development. And we’ll soon be talking about the circular economy, and then we’ll see how it really promotes type 2 change.
Pierre Léonard: [00:04:51] So how do you put this approach into practice? To initiate Type 2 change, start by challenging your fundamental assumptions. Ask yourself, for example, “What if we did exactly the opposite?” Or “What would we do if we had to start from scratch today?”. Or, and I like this one a lot: “How can we fail for sure in our current approach?”.
Pierre Léonard: [00:05:16] Then put together a cross-functional project team including atypical profiles who think differently.
Pierre Léonard: [00:05:21] Experiment on a small scale before rolling out on a massive scale, and above all communicate clearly on the reasons for this transformation process. Your teams need to understand your vision in order to embrace change.
Michel: [00:05:33] Besides, there’s no shortage of neuro-atypicals, is there? If I’m not mistaken, statistically, this represents 28% of a company’s employees.
Pierre Léonard: [00:05:40] Ok. I didn’t know, but thanks for the clarification.
Michel: [00:05:42] I’m not 100% sure of the figure, but I’m not far off.
Pierre Léonard: [00:05:44] Ok. Finally, in the context of sustainable development, identify how your current activity generates negative externalities. So, as you know, an externality is a consequence of your activity that impacts the well-being of others, positively or negatively, without any direct financial counterpart. So identify how your activity generates negative externalities, and then imagine a model where this waste, in quotation marks, becomes a resource.
Pierre Léonard: [00:06:12] In conclusion, type-two change is not an option, it’s a necessity in our changing world. This is your opportunity to turn the challenges of sustainable development into tangible competitive advantages. It’s all about knowing if you’re ready to step out of your comfort zone to create the company of tomorrow.
Michel: [00:06:30] It’s an important question, because a lot of bosses and managers complain about people’s ability to accept change within the company, but they forget that they’re the ones setting the example.
Pierre Léonard: [00:06:38] Exactly. Thank you for listening for six minutes to understand. In the next few episodes, I’d like to explore together the three major levers of the circular economy and the advantages they can bring you.
Michel: [00:06:49] This podcast project is an initiative created and proposed by the ASBL “The Podcast Factory Org”, with the sponsorship of “transforma bxl – Innovation Playground”, a coworking space in Evere. Since January 2025, and for five years, we have also been sponsored by “Plugin Company”, our operator of preferred charging stations and charging cards. “The Podcast Factory Org” is proud to be a member of “KAYA” – Coalition des Écopreneurs et Écopreneures, and to collaborate with the “Love Health Center”. You can find all the episodes of all our podcasts on the “What’s Your Story point be” website. Don’t forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel @thepodcastfactoryorg, where we offer the podcast in video format with the transcript, with subtitles, in several languages.
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