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Entr'Nous.

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Entr'Nous, the podcast to talk 
about

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sexuality.

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By you, with you, 
for

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you.

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Hello, welcome to the 80th episode 
of the "Entr'Nous" podcast,

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an association dedicated to 
relational well-being and

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sexuality, located in Brussels but 
now also in Walloon Brabant in

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Wavre; we have really enjoyed 
producing this podcast for almost

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seven years now, 
tackling a wide variety of topics

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through our encounters.

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We just finished a podcast on 
masculinism;

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I really warmly recommend it to 
you,

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whatever your situation, 
I think it can really provide

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interesting insights.

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And today, I'm super curious, 
because in fact it's really a very

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improvised podcast on my part, 
we're going to talk about

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procrastination and thus 
"Procrastination and intimate life,

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sexuality", and at the microphone I 
have the pleasure of

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welcoming Johan, hello Johan.

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Hello Olivier.

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And Fanny, once again.

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Hello Fanny.

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Hello Olivier, hello Johan.

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So (Johan Schuiten: 
Hello Fanny), could you introduce

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yourself in a few words, 
whatever you feel like sharing? And

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the rest, we'll put in the article.

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I am an entrepreneur and coach for 
the game of life.

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So what is the game of life?

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In fact, for me it is: 
"Life is a game." And I find seeing

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it like that brings a bit of 
lightness,

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it's kind of my worldview.

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And it's a game that I apply just 
as much to procrastination,

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parenting, or entrepreneurship, 
and that's it.

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Just to give an example perhaps, 
when it comes to procrastination,

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I feel that in the morning when I 
get up and work,

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well if I procrastinate, 
if I get distracted and don't work

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on what I want to do, 
well then I actually feel like I'm

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losing games. Conversely, 
if I manage to do what I want and

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reach my goals, well in a way I win 
my goals.

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And then we can get into debates 
about: what does

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winning the game actually mean?

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Thank you, and I love this playful 
side.

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We always start the podcasts with 
the intention; for me, it's super

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important to ask yourself, 
"Well, why am I actually here?"

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That is to say, it takes a bit of 
introspection and also authenticity

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to tell people why we speak, 
why we come to the mic like this,

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and that way, we understand the 
content, the context, and the

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atmosphere all the better. Could 
you share your intention with us?

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Yes, well, I think it's twofold.

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Why am I talking about 
procrastination? For me,

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it's a phenomenon I know very well 
because it has affected me a lot,

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and it continues to be part of my 
daily life.

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So my intention is to be able to 
help people bring awareness to it,

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to share my perspective on it.

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The concept of this podcast, 
with this original pairing with

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intimacy, well, I'm full of 
curiosity too,

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and I'm quite—both can potentially 
be taboo,

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and so talking about taboos and 
bringing them into the spotlight,

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I think that's pretty great.

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It brings a sense of lightness as 
well.

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Thank you. Hello Fanny, could you 
introduce

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yourself in a few words?

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Hello Olivier, hello everyone.

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I am a psycho-sexologist and 
mindfulness therapist.

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And for you, Fanny, could you share

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your intention with us?

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My intention is for us to sit down 
today and reflect on the connection

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between procrastination and 
sexuality.

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What will we be able to make of all 
this? What does it reflect?

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And for my part, 
my intention is simply to open up a

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curious speaking space—I think 
we're all curious, we don't quite

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know where we're going, 
we have a few ideas, we've

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obviously worked on the topic a 
bit, but telling ourselves, "Let's

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leave room for spontaneity," which 
makes listening to each other all

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the more enjoyable. Before starting 
by asking you what procrastination

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is and isn't, I suggest we start 
with a little game,

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since you mentioned games, 
giving examples—those of us here,

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Fanny, Johan, and me—and maybe you 
can do the same exercise at home.

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Where do I procrastinate or have I 
procrastinated in my life,

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and keeping in mind that sexuality 
is intimate life,

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it's vast, it's about oneself, 
one's intimate life with oneself,

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encounters with others, 
upbringing,

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our hopes, our desires, 
our vision of life,

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curiosity, encounters, 
love—it's so vast.

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But above all, I want to come back 
to something essential,

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which is that sexuality, 
for me, is linked to our vitality,

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our life energy. And that 
everything that brings us closer to

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our life energy fills us with 
vitality,

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joy, dynamism, and action, 
and that when we move away from it,

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we feel like we're missing out on 
something.

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And so I propose we do a quick 
round,

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several speaking rounds, 
fairly brief,

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on examples of procrastination that 
we've experienced ourselves.

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I think I'm at an age, 
or in a period of life,

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where there are too many things to 
discover,

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so I want to take advantage of 
everything at once,

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everything that comes my way.

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And I procrastinate on resting - 
Laughs.

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It's important, we don't talk about 
that either.

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Thank you.

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I feel like I procrastinate ending 
my workday every single day -

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Laughs. I have a reminder that 
tells me I need to stop,

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and I hit snooze, 
snooze, snooze.

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I procrastinate, 
among other things,

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on buying new clothes - 
Laughs.

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It's really... just yesterday I 
tore a shirt from wear and tear

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because I love it so much, 
it's beautiful,

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my wife gave it to me, 
and I said "Okay," but I know I'm

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procrastinating, I need to do it, 
it's necessary,

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but well, it's always later.

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For what reason, 
I don't know, but "Come on Olivier,

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you need to take care of your 
clothes."

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Yeah, I have another example of 
procrastination that really affects

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me, that even gives me anxiety, 
and that's messages—replying to

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messages. I can take weeks, 
even months to reply to a message

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because I tell myself, 
"No, it's not the right time,

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I want to reply properly to this 
message." And in fact,

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I procrastinate replying so much 
that I feel bad about it, I think,

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"Shoot, that person is waiting." 
Yeah,

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that's a big area of 
procrastination for me.

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Same here. Laughs - 
A lot of messages are,

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stay as drafts in my WhatsApp.

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For me, I feel like I procrastinate 
quite often on

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medical appointments.

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Thank you. For me, 
over the past few years,

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I've been procrastinating for four 
years on a project that is really

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close to my heart, 
but it's always put off for later.

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And I tell myself "No", 
I built an egg-shaped room,

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a horizontal egg, 
well 3.50 meters long,

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you can stand up in it, 
so it's really a nest.

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It's close to my heart, 
I really think, "Wow, I just love

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it!". But for some reason, 
I procrastinate finishing it.

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And wow, starting things, 
I'm super good at it,

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doing things, I love it, 
organizing,

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and yet, when it comes to 
finishing,

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I've been procrastinating for four 
years,

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I say, "Ah, now I've decided, 
I'm doing it." Well,

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I'll tell you in the next episode 
if it's finished -

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Laughs. At the same time, 
it can already be used,

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you can sleep in it or hold a 
consultation, or make it a love

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room, or whatever you want. But 
it's not finished,

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and I know I have to kick my own 
ass to say,

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"Come on, finish it, 
Olivier."

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Yes, it's already great, 
it already feels so good.

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We can do a third round, 
if you want?

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Yeah, a really simple example, 
because I want to do so many things

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that I feel like I'm running out of 
time,

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but I still have many years ahead 
of me,

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I hope, to discover everything, 
but I'd like to learn how to

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tattoo. It's really something I put 
off,

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yeah, I tell myself, 
"It's not the right time," yeah,

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I think I'm procrastinating on that 
desire.

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Thank you.

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I procrastinated for several weeks,

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I'd say, over daring to tell my 
mother that I loved her.

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So, at one point, 
I decided that it was something

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important to me, 
that I really wanted to do it.

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And even though I see her every 
Tuesday,

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sometimes with the children, 
finding the right moment isn't

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always easy. I think there was a 
bit of perfectionism on my part to

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find the right moment and try to 
bring up the conversation,

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and often it would drift off to 
other things,

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and so I jumped ship.

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And I finally managed to do it, 
and I was very happy,

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and ultimately relieved to do it.

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Thank you. And telling the people 
we love that we love them...

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And not too late either, 
doing it (Fanny Galodé: Yeah,

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that's really beautiful) regularly. 
Giving compliments,

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telling people how much we 
appreciate them.

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It's a little reminder for us to 
tell our loved ones, our

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close ones, that we love them.

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And the third example I had in mind 
is:

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the book about the penis.

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In fact, it's been eight years 
since I started writing a book.

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Of course, I was patient because I 
had four men who participated and

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also took several years to write 
it,

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but I know I procrastinated a bit.

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My intuition told me where to go 
and all that, but at the same time,

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I was trying to juggle too many 
things. And I also procrastinated

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because it's a book that can be, 
that is quite confronting too,

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I think, and exposes me 
tremendously.

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And so thank you to Fanny—I'll take 
this opportunity to thank

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you—because during your internship,

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you spent five weeks doing the 
layout for about 130 magnificent

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pages. But there you have it, 
it's quite an example of

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procrastination; eight years is no 
small thing.

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A super long gestation, 
and I often promised myself, "Come

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on, it's coming out this year." And 
this year will be the year,

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so thank you for your—your 
presence,

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which allowed the project to truly 
be brought to life.

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So thank you, Fanny.

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Thank you for the invitation.

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You were just waiting for the final 
piece for everything

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to fall into place.

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And so let's dive into this very 
personal topic of procrastination.

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What would you like to say about 
it, Johan? About what it is and

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what it isn't, so we can understand 
the topic a bit better? So that we

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might share a somewhat similar 
interpretation. At the same time,

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even if there's no consensus on the 
definition for everyone, you're

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passionate about it, 
you dedicate your time to it, you

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help people. So I think that 
indeed,

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your insight is of tremendous 
interest to us.

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Yeah. Thanks for the question—it's 
not an easy one.

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Indeed, many people say they 
procrastinate,

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and I realize that I might not have 
the same definition as them,

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and that doesn't really matter in 
itself.

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I'm going to try to offer my 
perspective,

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and in fact I'll try to keep it 
fairly simple,

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and I'll add nuances later.

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Which is almost a philosophy, 
a deeper reflection behind

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procrastination. So, 
for me, procrastination feels like

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a phenomenon where there's a part 
of us that wants to,

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that decides to do something.

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And then there's another part of us 
that ultimately,

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it feels like, digs its heels in or 
finds a clever way at times to

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ultimately derail us from that 
course.

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And I would say the consequence is 
generally regret,

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guilt, and an unpleasant feeling.

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And I feel that if we experience 
that,

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we're generally dealing with 
procrastination.

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So if I give a counterexample of 
procrastination,

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it's someone who says, 
"Well, look,

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I had planned, I had decided to do 
a photoshoot tomorrow,

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but I'm actually exhausted, 
so I'm going to postpone it." To

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me, that's a conscious, 
mature decision;

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it might ultimately feel 
unpleasant,

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we might be disappointed, 
but we made that choice proactively

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and with full awareness, 
so I feel there's less of that

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procrastination. Now, 
if it happens every month,

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if it starts becoming regular, 
and each time there's a good

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reason, then we can start thinking,

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"Wait, am I not actually 
procrastinating after all?" So

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there is also a notion of 
continuity,

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perpetuity, and repetition in 
procrastination (Olivier Mageren:

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Thank you). So much for the basics.

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Spontaneously, you know, 
listening to you,

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I find myself thinking, 
"Well, what connection would you

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make between procrastination and 
our little inner voice?".

240
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You know, the one that whispers to 
us a bit,

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that we maybe don't listen to 
enough—we can sometimes call it

242
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intuition—but that link between 
procrastination

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and our inner compass?

244
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That's interesting. And before 
answering, I'd like to clarify,

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because something that stands out 
to me is this:

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the inner voice can be the voice of 
the heart.

247
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But I'd also say, 
inner voices can also be

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injunctions, reproaches, 
the judgment of others that we

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anticipate. So for me, 
there are several inner voices:

250
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there's our own little voice, 
and then there's the voice of

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others. And personally, 
I find it difficult to tell the

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difference between the two.

253
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And so, procrastination can be when 
the little inner voice says,

254
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"I want to do this," and the other 
voices say,

255
00:11:00,974 --> 00:11:03,072
"No, you don't deserve it," or "Oh,

256
00:11:03,072 --> 00:11:05,390
are you sure? What will other 
people think?".

257
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And as a result, 
there's paralysis,

258
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a battle, a struggle, and paralysis

259
00:11:09,228 --> 00:11:10,430
that can come out of it.

260
00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:13,142
Yes, you can be very calm on the 
outside but have this

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constant inner struggle.

262
00:11:14,509 --> 00:11:15,390
Yes, that too.

263
00:11:15,390 --> 00:11:17,868
It's funny because I struggle with 
the opposite.

264
00:11:17,870 --> 00:11:19,470
I'd like to procrastinate.

265
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And actually, I don't think I can.

266
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The people around me help me a bit 
by telling me,

267
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"Okay, take a break, 
it doesn't matter if we did this,

268
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that, and that during the day even 
though it was planned"—for me,

269
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it's like I'd almost like to 
procrastinate,

270
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so it's a great counterexample.

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If I may jump in, 
since procrastinating is generally

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seen as something negative, 
I feel like here it might not be

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procrastination you're looking for,

274
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but rest, relaxation, 
non-action, and postponing things,

275
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putting them off.

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And I think, I find it great to say 
"I'd like to be able to manage to

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put things off," and that's a bit 
of FOMO,

278
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and there is indeed something 
difficult—I struggle with it too,

279
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I really relate to what you're 
saying—but personally I wouldn't

280
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have used the word procrastinate; 
I would have liked to tell myself,

281
00:12:00,818 --> 00:12:03,013
"I would have liked, 
to make it easier for myself,

282
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to postpone things and not be in 
such a rush." So,

283
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,106
how does making that distinction 
between procrastinating and

284
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postponing land with you?

285
00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:10,920
Which carries less guilt, 
perhaps?

286
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,040
Wow! Thank you for that 
clarification.

287
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,580
It's true that what you're saying 
resonates more;

288
00:12:15,580 --> 00:12:18,483
it's more like, "Yeah, 
postponing to listen to yourself,

289
00:12:18,483 --> 00:12:20,479
to rest" rather than 
procrastinating.

290
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,000
Does procrastinating have a 
negative connotation for you?

291
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,371
Personally, I really like basing 
life on vitality and joy,

292
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even play, playfulness, 
and having fun.

293
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:31,810
Trying things out, 
you could say, "I've never done

294
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this, well okay, 
I'll try procrastinating to see

295
00:12:33,928 --> 00:12:35,529
what it feels like," or the 
opposite,

296
00:12:35,529 --> 00:12:38,494
never doing it. So I like to play 
around to experience things for

297
00:12:38,494 --> 00:12:39,960
myself, to form my own opinion.

298
00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,132
That's how I see it, 
so it's neither good nor bad. If

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00:12:42,132 --> 00:12:44,418
you enjoy procrastinating, 
go ahead, keep doing it. If it

300
00:12:44,418 --> 00:12:47,557
truly brings you joy because you 
actually find a space of freedom,

301
00:12:47,557 --> 00:12:50,466
of power, of I don't know, 
something that makes you feel good.

302
00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:53,092
To bounce back on what you were 
saying just before,

303
00:12:53,092 --> 00:12:55,090
making space and time in your 
schedule,

304
00:12:55,090 --> 00:12:58,057
I think that's really interesting 
advice in sexology or in

305
00:12:58,057 --> 00:13:00,893
relationships. In terms of 
relationship hygiene,

306
00:13:00,893 --> 00:13:03,696
we are so overstimulated mentally, 
physically,

307
00:13:03,696 --> 00:13:04,789
and in our time too.

308
00:13:04,910 --> 00:13:07,811
Whereas sexuality is about enjoying 
yourself, taking your time, being

309
00:13:07,811 --> 00:13:10,132
in the present moment, 
actually losing track of time, and

310
00:13:10,132 --> 00:13:12,187
being well-rested. The system, 
the body,

311
00:13:12,187 --> 00:13:15,558
and the mind often need to be 
rested to experience a quality

312
00:13:15,558 --> 00:13:17,895
sexual, relational, 
intimate, erotic,

313
00:13:17,895 --> 00:13:19,270
or sensual connection.

314
00:13:19,270 --> 00:13:21,933
We need to be rested and do 
nothing;

315
00:13:21,933 --> 00:13:25,239
there's an aspect of being more 
available,

316
00:13:25,239 --> 00:13:28,177
and doing nothing is also a 
challenge -

317
00:13:28,177 --> 00:13:29,550
Laughter - I find.

318
00:13:30,590 --> 00:13:33,334
Absolutely. I'm going to answer 
your questions,

319
00:13:33,334 --> 00:13:36,510
Fanny, which I really like, 
building on what Olivier said.

320
00:13:36,550 --> 00:13:38,601
And I'd like to say, 
because when you say you

321
00:13:38,601 --> 00:13:41,787
enjoy—well, that one could enjoy 
procrastinating—to me there's a

322
00:13:41,787 --> 00:13:44,519
definition I struggle with, 
and so I want to expand on this

323
00:13:44,519 --> 00:13:47,762
definition of procrastination, 
and perhaps say that there could be

324
00:13:47,762 --> 00:13:50,720
two types of procrastination: 
positive procrastination and

325
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:52,080
negative procrastination.

326
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,246
I'd say that negative 
procrastination is when we actually

327
00:13:55,246 --> 00:13:58,575
procrastinate, and afterwards we 
have this unpleasant feeling,

328
00:13:58,575 --> 00:14:01,481
this burden that makes 
procrastinating not great at that

329
00:14:01,481 --> 00:14:03,358
point, makes it something negative.

330
00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,741
And there could be positive 
procrastination,

331
00:14:05,741 --> 00:14:07,713
which is, "Well, 
I really want to do this,

332
00:14:07,713 --> 00:14:10,787
that, and the other," so I schedule 
a super busy week for myself,

333
00:14:10,787 --> 00:14:13,160
and then ultimately, 
well, I really want to do it.

334
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,620
And then in the end I don't do it, 
and sometimes it just naturally

335
00:14:15,620 --> 00:14:17,583
slips away from me, 
without me really being aware of

336
00:14:17,583 --> 00:14:19,373
it. I realize that I did half the 
stuff,

337
00:14:19,373 --> 00:14:22,337
and actually, I might realize that 
in the end I'm happy and tell

338
00:14:22,337 --> 00:14:24,104
myself, "Well, actually, 
it's cool,

339
00:14:24,104 --> 00:14:26,099
I did these three things, 
I'm super happy,

340
00:14:26,099 --> 00:14:28,835
I didn't do four or five, 
and I'm actually okay with that."

341
00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,709
And "If I had done them all, 
wow, what a hell of a week I would

342
00:14:31,709 --> 00:14:34,399
have had," and so I'm thrilled that 
I procrastinated.

343
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,564
And that helps reconcile, 
I'd say,

344
00:14:36,564 --> 00:14:38,761
several worldviews because, 
to me,

345
00:14:38,761 --> 00:14:40,590
procrastination is a signal.

346
00:14:40,590 --> 00:14:43,790
It's a signal that our body, 
or in a way,

347
00:14:43,790 --> 00:14:47,790
isn't ready to do the task we want 
to accomplish.

348
00:14:47,830 --> 00:14:49,998
And they can actually be very good 
reasons; usually, they are very

349
00:14:49,998 --> 00:14:52,095
good reasons. Sometimes it's 
frustrating because it really works

350
00:14:52,095 --> 00:14:54,589
against us and we genuinely want to 
succeed. At that point, we can

351
00:14:54,589 --> 00:14:56,893
fight or rather bypass 
procrastination,

352
00:14:56,893 --> 00:14:59,590
but my view on procrastination is 
evolving a bit.

353
00:14:59,630 --> 00:15:02,306
At one point, I saw it purely as 
something negative, and I wanted to

354
00:15:02,306 --> 00:15:05,429
control procrastination. And now 
I'm starting to see the positive

355
00:15:05,429 --> 00:15:07,209
sides much more, 
and signals about,

356
00:15:07,209 --> 00:15:10,711
ultimately, what my intentions are 
that make me procrastinate and how

357
00:15:10,711 --> 00:15:13,263
to question my intentions rather 
than just forcing

358
00:15:13,263 --> 00:15:14,510
tasks and productivity?

359
00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:15,630
Thank you, Johan.

360
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:20,160
Could you share with us why you're 
so passionate about

361
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,190
procrastination? What brought you 
to that in your life?

362
00:15:23,270 --> 00:15:26,470
What made it actually become a 
subject for coaching people?

363
00:15:26,510 --> 00:15:27,630
It's actually awesome!

364
00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:30,310
There are two reasons, 
I'd say, that are linked.

365
00:15:30,430 --> 00:15:33,597
The first is my own experience, 
and the second is:

366
00:15:33,597 --> 00:15:36,146
I feel it's my, my personal 
conviction,

367
00:15:36,146 --> 00:15:39,063
my uniqueness. Now, 
it's something a bit abstract and

368
00:15:39,063 --> 00:15:41,730
not always easy to explain, 
but I feel that what really drives

369
00:15:41,730 --> 00:15:43,456
me in life, what sparks a reaction 
in me,

370
00:15:43,456 --> 00:15:45,653
is seeing people struggling against 
themselves,

371
00:15:45,653 --> 00:15:47,430
playing in a game that doesn't suit 
them,

372
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:48,840
with rules that don't suit them.

373
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,747
Maybe because they're using other 
people's cheat codes, because they

374
00:15:51,747 --> 00:15:54,420
were promised miracles and it 
actually doesn't work for them, and

375
00:15:54,420 --> 00:15:56,752
I want people to be able to find 
their own way of playing and

376
00:15:56,752 --> 00:15:59,315
succeeding at their own game, 
with their own rules. So that's

377
00:15:59,315 --> 00:16:01,868
partly my empathetic side, 
seeing people struggle with

378
00:16:01,868 --> 00:16:04,800
procrastination, just like I 
struggled with procrastination.

379
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,640
When I was a kid in school, 
things came easily to me,

380
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,736
so I never really learned how to 
work;

381
00:16:09,736 --> 00:16:11,560
I felt like I was pretty passive.

382
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,069
And then when the homework 
increased and it got harder,

383
00:16:14,069 --> 00:16:15,840
well, I started procrastinating 
more.

384
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,888
During my studies, 
mainly at university,

385
00:16:17,888 --> 00:16:20,583
it was awful in the sense that I'd 
spend hours at my desk,

386
00:16:20,583 --> 00:16:22,515
over my papers, telling myself, 
"Okay,

387
00:16:22,515 --> 00:16:25,502
I'm not moving until I make 
progress," and failing because my

388
00:16:25,502 --> 00:16:28,956
brain was actually overloaded—it 
didn't want all that painful effort

389
00:16:28,956 --> 00:16:31,534
for a reward, a degree maybe five 
years down the line,

390
00:16:31,534 --> 00:16:33,400
that might or might not be useful 
to me.

391
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:34,960
And so I really struggled back 
then.

392
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,559
And then when I was an employee, 
and a consultant, well, I had days

393
00:16:37,559 --> 00:16:40,209
where I was super productive, 
and days that were less productive.

394
00:16:40,250 --> 00:16:42,603
In the end, all things considered, 
when I compared myself to others, I

395
00:16:42,603 --> 00:16:45,038
thought, "Well, actually it's fine, 
and the clients are super happy, so

396
00:16:45,038 --> 00:16:47,316
no need to beat myself up." But 
when I became an entrepreneur,

397
00:16:47,316 --> 00:16:50,148
every single day you're only 
working for yourself. And so,

398
00:16:50,148 --> 00:16:52,731
if you slack off, 
well, you feel guilty and you put

399
00:16:52,731 --> 00:16:53,928
pressure on yourself.

400
00:16:53,970 --> 00:16:56,665
And there, I didn't have anyone 
coming to ask me, "Is that project

401
00:16:56,665 --> 00:16:59,410
you're working on ready? Are you 
moving forward? Where are you at?

402
00:16:59,610 --> 00:17:02,352
Give me an update." I had nothing, 
and so I had all the time in the

403
00:17:02,352 --> 00:17:04,121
world to procrastinate; 
I didn't like it,

404
00:17:04,121 --> 00:17:06,851
I hated it, I found it unpleasant 
not seeing myself make progress

405
00:17:06,851 --> 00:17:08,973
even though these were projects 
close to my heart,

406
00:17:08,973 --> 00:17:11,349
projects I loved—there was, 
I couldn't see any reason to

407
00:17:11,349 --> 00:17:13,250
procrastinate. And so I struggled a 
lot,

408
00:17:13,250 --> 00:17:15,048
until a year ago when I realized 
that,

409
00:17:15,048 --> 00:17:16,730
actually, I had to stop forcing it,

410
00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:19,108
stop pouring in energy, 
because I've tried that,

411
00:17:19,108 --> 00:17:21,138
it doesn't help, 
it makes you feel guilty,

412
00:17:21,138 --> 00:17:22,810
you feel worthless, 
you feel lazy.

413
00:17:22,850 --> 00:17:25,246
On the other hand, 
what I understood was that I had to

414
00:17:25,246 --> 00:17:27,810
stop fighting and understand, 
use the right strategy.

415
00:17:27,850 --> 00:17:30,008
And that was a major turning point.

416
00:17:30,130 --> 00:17:33,379
Wow, thank you. That makes me think 
of something when you say,

417
00:17:33,379 --> 00:17:35,778
"Well yes, when you're ultimately 
self-employed, as they say in

418
00:17:35,778 --> 00:17:38,371
France, or independent, 
freelance, or whatever. There's no

419
00:17:38,371 --> 00:17:40,118
one to ask us, 'So, 
where's the report,

420
00:17:40,118 --> 00:17:42,060
where are we at?' We aren't 
challenged,

421
00:17:42,060 --> 00:17:45,226
we have no guardrails or a system 
supporting us." And I think that

422
00:17:45,226 --> 00:17:47,069
ultimately, being left to our own 
devices,

423
00:17:47,069 --> 00:17:49,320
maybe a lot of entrepreneurs face 
procrastination.

424
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:51,992
And ultimately, in our intimate 
lives, we are also, in our intimate

425
00:17:51,992 --> 00:17:53,826
lives, all on our own; 
we are the self-employed

426
00:17:53,826 --> 00:17:56,506
entrepreneurs of our intimate, 
romantic, erotic, sexual lives or,

427
00:17:56,506 --> 00:17:58,903
even if we decide to be single or 
whatever, but actually in our

428
00:17:58,903 --> 00:18:01,441
personal life and our sexuality, 
there is no one coming to ask us,

429
00:18:01,441 --> 00:18:05,200
"So, where are you at?" — Laughs. 
It's—wow!

430
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,498
Actually, intimacy is fertile 
ground for this,

431
00:18:07,498 --> 00:18:10,882
because we don't have an inherently 
assigned or legitimate guide around

432
00:18:10,882 --> 00:18:12,490
us, or whatever, 
who will dare say,

433
00:18:12,490 --> 00:18:14,597
"Listen, how are things going with 
you there?

434
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,534
Give me a quick report tomorrow, 
tell me about your sex life?" —

435
00:18:18,534 --> 00:18:19,840
Laughs — it's comical.

436
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,720
Yes, totally. You're putting your 
finger on something quite powerful,

437
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,835
which is that I think the 
environment and the factors are

438
00:18:24,835 --> 00:18:27,678
things I really like to study. And 
to understand procrastination, and

439
00:18:27,678 --> 00:18:30,104
sometimes explain it—and indeed in 
one's intimate life,

440
00:18:30,104 --> 00:18:31,976
I think it ticks a lot of boxes in 
that regard,

441
00:18:31,976 --> 00:18:33,640
and you just put your finger on a 
big one.

442
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,425
We are self-employed entrepreneurs,

443
00:18:35,425 --> 00:18:37,553
we are sovereign and creators of 
our own lives,

444
00:18:37,553 --> 00:18:40,330
and no one else can write the 
script for us or make our choices.

445
00:18:40,370 --> 00:18:42,690
Wow! I'm a Libra, 
and I know that early in my life,

446
00:18:42,690 --> 00:18:46,070
making choices was complicated. My 
procrastination when I was young

447
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:48,253
was really about managing to make 
choices;

448
00:18:48,253 --> 00:18:49,890
I would put them off until later.

449
00:18:49,930 --> 00:18:52,003
That's the first time I thought, 
"Oh yeah,

450
00:18:52,003 --> 00:18:54,892
procrastinating." When we met, 
during POdBXL,

451
00:18:54,892 --> 00:18:58,903
the annual podcast festival of "The 
Podcast Factory Org",

452
00:18:58,903 --> 00:19:02,239
I thought, "Wow!" What comes to 
mind is that often people—at least

453
00:19:02,239 --> 00:19:05,130
there are scientific articles that 
mention it—people who struggle

454
00:19:05,130 --> 00:19:06,904
sexually or in their intimate, 
romantic,

455
00:19:06,904 --> 00:19:09,490
or other aspects of life, 
procrastinate or wait years before

456
00:19:09,490 --> 00:19:11,365
asking for advice or daring to talk 
about it;

457
00:19:11,365 --> 00:19:14,018
there's really something that's 
"Wow." And then after that,

458
00:19:14,018 --> 00:19:17,098
the question—you change partners, 
so the question becomes obsolete,

459
00:19:17,098 --> 00:19:19,761
or else you no longer feel 
justified because the question you

460
00:19:19,761 --> 00:19:22,441
had at 25, at 40 you think it's not 
really..." Even though it might

461
00:19:22,441 --> 00:19:24,697
actually still be relatively 
interesting, but you don't really

462
00:19:24,697 --> 00:19:27,881
dare to ask it anymore. And 
thinking that maybe the topic of

463
00:19:27,881 --> 00:19:31,641
intimacy, sexuality, 
is ultimately one of the most prone

464
00:19:31,641 --> 00:19:33,050
to procrastination.

465
00:19:33,210 --> 00:19:35,770
That's a good question. I don't 
have a definitive answer, but in

466
00:19:35,770 --> 00:19:38,943
any case, yes, one thing that 
really increases procrastination is

467
00:19:38,943 --> 00:19:41,153
the safety aspect, 
the psychological side of,

468
00:19:41,153 --> 00:19:43,020
"Wait, am I putting pressure on 
myself?

469
00:19:43,020 --> 00:19:45,555
Do I have fears?" And when we talk 
about our intimate life,

470
00:19:45,555 --> 00:19:48,130
well, we're talking about ourselves 
above all; we're talking about

471
00:19:48,130 --> 00:19:51,263
things that are private and not 
public. So taking action in that

472
00:19:51,263 --> 00:19:54,059
area means exposing yourself a bit 
more.

473
00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:56,166
All these factors are things that, 
yes,

474
00:19:56,166 --> 00:19:58,231
give us valid reasons, I'd say, not 
to go

475
00:19:58,231 --> 00:19:59,420
there, so that's that.

476
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:02,175
It's really common in 
consultations,

477
00:20:02,175 --> 00:20:05,092
people say, "I've been saying I 
have to do it for a year,

478
00:20:05,092 --> 00:20:07,101
two years, three years, 
seven years,

479
00:20:07,101 --> 00:20:09,339
but...". There comes a moment when 
you wonder,

480
00:20:09,339 --> 00:20:12,023
"Why today, in the end?". The 
question is, "What makes you take

481
00:20:12,023 --> 00:20:13,690
action today and not six months 
ago,

482
00:20:13,690 --> 00:20:14,740
nor two years from now?

483
00:20:14,780 --> 00:20:17,232
What makes it happen right here and 
now, that there is momentum, that

484
00:20:17,232 --> 00:20:18,726
you have the audacity?". We are 
faced with

485
00:20:18,726 --> 00:20:19,858
ourselves when dealing with that.

486
00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:22,380
I'd be curious to know what those 
people's answer is.

487
00:20:22,660 --> 00:20:24,685
About what prompted them, what made 
them

488
00:20:24,685 --> 00:20:25,817
decide to take action?

489
00:20:25,860 --> 00:20:30,153
Part of me thinks that it's also a 
necessary time:

490
00:20:30,153 --> 00:20:33,608
for reflection, being, 
feeling ready,

491
00:20:33,608 --> 00:20:36,330
starting to open up this topic.

492
00:20:36,370 --> 00:20:39,655
Maybe the lapse of time between "I 
should go talk about it,

493
00:20:39,655 --> 00:20:42,530
I should open up this topic, 
I should see someone".

494
00:20:42,530 --> 00:20:45,451
And the day you move forward on 
this subject,

495
00:20:45,451 --> 00:20:49,556
it is, I think it's necessary on 
one hand—that's my little part

496
00:20:49,556 --> 00:20:51,210
coming from boundaries.

497
00:20:52,170 --> 00:20:54,035
For me, every consultation is 
different,

498
00:20:54,035 --> 00:20:56,379
and it's true that there are plenty 
of other answers,

499
00:20:56,379 --> 00:20:59,256
but what comes to mind is the fact 
that sometimes the person says,

500
00:20:59,256 --> 00:21:01,866
"I've been telling myself for a 
long time that I need to move

501
00:21:01,866 --> 00:21:04,103
forward, I know what I have to do, 
but what exactly,

502
00:21:04,103 --> 00:21:05,610
it's a bit vague. Who to contact?

503
00:21:05,610 --> 00:21:08,294
I didn't know there were resources, 
I didn't know sexologists existed,

504
00:21:08,294 --> 00:21:10,906
or who to reach out to, 
or...". There's really this thing

505
00:21:10,906 --> 00:21:13,699
of, "I know I need to take action, 
but I'm procrastinating because I

506
00:21:13,699 --> 00:21:16,042
can't get past the first steps 
of...". You see, if it were

507
00:21:16,042 --> 00:21:18,834
something simple and analytical, 
well okay, "I want to get around,

508
00:21:18,834 --> 00:21:21,140
well okay, on foot, 
by scooter...". I'd say right away,

509
00:21:21,140 --> 00:21:23,883
the options and ideas are there and 
it becomes concrete, pragmatic:

510
00:21:23,883 --> 00:21:26,483
"Okay, I'll take the car or the 
subway," whereas here people say,

511
00:21:26,483 --> 00:21:28,407
"I don't dare to, 
and who am I going to talk to, and

512
00:21:28,407 --> 00:21:30,526
I don't know anyone, 
I have no reference point, I have

513
00:21:30,526 --> 00:21:33,077
no example." Sometimes it's the 
discomfort of saying,

514
00:21:33,077 --> 00:21:35,613
"I'm sick of hurting, 
I'm really tired of suffering,

515
00:21:35,613 --> 00:21:38,096
of being alone." Sometimes, 
it's the external context

516
00:21:38,096 --> 00:21:39,876
confronting us; we have clients who 
say,

517
00:21:39,876 --> 00:21:41,445
"Yeah, but I met this person and 
now,

518
00:21:41,445 --> 00:21:43,695
actually no, I need to do 
something." But I feel this

519
00:21:43,695 --> 00:21:46,260
external prompt saying, 
"Well, when are you going to make a

520
00:21:46,260 --> 00:21:48,577
move?" Yes, I realize it, 
friends act a bit like a mirror,

521
00:21:48,577 --> 00:21:50,917
saying, "How many more years are 
you going to stay with that

522
00:21:50,917 --> 00:21:53,259
discomfort of yours?", 
so there's a bit of everything like

523
00:21:53,259 --> 00:21:55,490
that. And sometimes it's the fear 
and risk of loss,

524
00:21:55,490 --> 00:21:57,441
when we feel we've gone too far and 
then yeah,

525
00:21:57,441 --> 00:21:59,390
we sense that the relationship is 
in danger,

526
00:21:59,390 --> 00:22:02,025
for example—it's make or break, 
like we've waited too long.

527
00:22:02,025 --> 00:22:04,712
What's at stake in the relationship 
also gets people moving,

528
00:22:04,712 --> 00:22:07,664
saying, "No, this is too precious, 
we can't keep turning a blind eye

529
00:22:07,664 --> 00:22:09,584
or burying our heads in the sand." 
You see,

530
00:22:09,584 --> 00:22:12,411
there's that side to it, 
so the reasons are very diverse and

531
00:22:12,411 --> 00:22:14,198
I think they are all super 
important,

532
00:22:14,198 --> 00:22:18,055
and interesting. I was wondering, 
besides this element and feature of

533
00:22:18,055 --> 00:22:21,526
procrastination, which is safety, 
are there other things you'd like

534
00:22:21,526 --> 00:22:23,860
to share that you find essential or 
important?

535
00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:27,092
Yes. Well, I actually created my 
own framework,

536
00:22:27,092 --> 00:22:29,682
my own method. It would be hard to 
summarize everything,

537
00:22:29,682 --> 00:22:31,311
but looking at the different 
aspects,

538
00:22:31,311 --> 00:22:34,210
what I say is that you have to be 
classy when facing procrastination.

539
00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:35,850
And what does being classy mean?

540
00:22:35,890 --> 00:22:37,330
It means things have to be clear.

541
00:22:37,370 --> 00:22:39,860
So anything related to information: 
knowing what to do, what the next

542
00:22:39,860 --> 00:22:42,420
step is, what will happen to me, 
what resources are available. Will

543
00:22:42,420 --> 00:22:44,482
it work for me? That is an aspect 
where,

544
00:22:44,482 --> 00:22:46,701
if things are vague, 
those are good reasons not to go

545
00:22:46,701 --> 00:22:48,850
for it. The second one is: 
appealing.

546
00:22:48,890 --> 00:22:50,410
So, what is the reward?

547
00:22:50,450 --> 00:22:52,567
And here, I think there is 
something interesting:

548
00:22:52,567 --> 00:22:54,382
many people do not take care of 
themselves,

549
00:22:54,382 --> 00:22:56,147
they find taking care of oneself 
selfish,

550
00:22:56,147 --> 00:22:58,010
or feel that being selfish is 
something bad.

551
00:22:58,050 --> 00:22:59,940
So if the reward is a more 
fulfilling life,

552
00:22:59,940 --> 00:23:01,938
well, for some people that is not a 
priority,

553
00:23:01,938 --> 00:23:04,368
and therefore the appealing aspect 
just is not there.

554
00:23:04,410 --> 00:23:06,210
Then, there is the bearable aspect.

555
00:23:06,250 --> 00:23:08,698
What am I going to have to do for 
that? The path to get there,

556
00:23:08,698 --> 00:23:10,760
before getting the reward of a 
fulfilling life,

557
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,616
a fulfilling intimate life, 
is going to be:

558
00:23:12,616 --> 00:23:15,246
well, I will have to search, 
I might have to ask people who will

559
00:23:15,246 --> 00:23:17,309
ask me questions, 
"Why are you looking for that?

560
00:23:17,309 --> 00:23:19,916
Ah, okay, are you having trouble in 
bed?" So you already picture all of

561
00:23:19,916 --> 00:23:22,117
that, thinking, "I already don't 
feel like doing that." "Okay, I can

562
00:23:22,117 --> 00:23:24,797
search online, but how will I know 
if they are any good?" So,

563
00:23:24,797 --> 00:23:26,439
in fact, there is all that 
research,

564
00:23:26,439 --> 00:23:28,737
then the process of going, 
maybe making a mistake,

565
00:23:28,737 --> 00:23:30,597
trying again, finding the right 
person.

566
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,280
It feels like a mountain to 
overcome,

567
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,556
and you do not always feel like 
climbing a mountain;

568
00:23:34,556 --> 00:23:36,880
you do not always have the energy 
to climb a mountain.

569
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,709
That is why when you say we need 
time,

570
00:23:38,709 --> 00:23:40,530
well, it is also that aspect of, 
"Wait,

571
00:23:40,530 --> 00:23:43,270
is this actually the right time?" 
There are many people who are

572
00:23:43,270 --> 00:23:45,442
already carrying too much, 
so adding a mountain on top of

573
00:23:45,442 --> 00:23:47,938
that—it is not the right time, 
and in that case, procrastination

574
00:23:47,938 --> 00:23:50,551
is actually very positive. And then 
the last one, I would say, is more

575
00:23:50,551 --> 00:23:53,079
the reassuring aspect. What is 
interesting—and what I would like

576
00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:55,772
to clarify regarding the reassuring 
aspect—is that often it is not the

577
00:23:55,772 --> 00:23:58,101
task itself that feels unsafe, 
but rather the consequence we

578
00:23:58,101 --> 00:24:00,974
imagine coming from the task. So, 
for example, I might procrastinate

579
00:24:00,974 --> 00:24:02,360
talking to my business partner.

580
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,893
Yet, talking to my business 
partner—I know what I need to say

581
00:24:04,893 --> 00:24:08,153
to them, it is easy. Okay, 
or talking—if we take examples more

582
00:24:08,153 --> 00:24:09,199
from intimate life.

583
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,169
Say I talk to my wife about our 
intimate life,

584
00:24:11,169 --> 00:24:13,360
for example; I know exactly what I 
want to tell her.

585
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,906
And actually, I am comfortable 
talking with my wife, so why, why

586
00:24:15,906 --> 00:24:18,285
don't I want to? In reality, 
it is because:

587
00:24:18,285 --> 00:24:21,287
what is the consequence of that 
discussion? Maybe I am afraid it

588
00:24:21,287 --> 00:24:24,759
will become artificial, 
that it will lose its romance.

589
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,250
Or maybe I am afraid it will affect 
our love,

590
00:24:27,250 --> 00:24:30,919
that she will fear I don't love her 
anymore because she will feel

591
00:24:30,919 --> 00:24:33,627
belittled. And actually, 
it is all those consequences we

592
00:24:33,627 --> 00:24:35,448
want to avoid, not the discussion 
itself.

593
00:24:35,490 --> 00:24:37,723
Yet generally we analyze the task, 
the discussion,

594
00:24:37,723 --> 00:24:39,282
and not the consequence, so that is 
a

595
00:24:39,282 --> 00:24:40,370
point that can also help.

596
00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:43,762
So yes, and what you're 
saying—thank you first of all for

597
00:24:43,762 --> 00:24:46,789
sharing that—makes me think of a 
defense mechanism:

598
00:24:46,789 --> 00:24:49,760
procrastination. It's as if we're 
protecting ourselves from

599
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:50,850
confronting something.

600
00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:53,170
That's completely it, 
it really is a defense mechanism.

601
00:24:53,210 --> 00:24:54,946
And that's why I say that, 
in a way,

602
00:24:54,946 --> 00:24:58,294
it's a signal our body sends us, 
so in principle it's rather good,

603
00:24:58,294 --> 00:25:01,330
it's for survival. And that's why 
it's good to listen to it.

604
00:25:01,370 --> 00:25:03,872
Now, if I look at my own life, 
there were times when,

605
00:25:03,872 --> 00:25:06,137
you know, I was launching as an 
entrepreneur,

606
00:25:06,137 --> 00:25:08,222
I'm full-time, I want to grow my 
business,

607
00:25:08,222 --> 00:25:10,130
and in reality I'm not moving 
forward.

608
00:25:10,170 --> 00:25:12,330
And in those cases, 
I tell myself, "Okay, but right now

609
00:25:12,330 --> 00:25:14,303
this isn't serving me." And 
actually,

610
00:25:14,303 --> 00:25:17,706
sometimes it serves our body, 
it serves our heart,

611
00:25:17,706 --> 00:25:19,407
and it can serve our head.

612
00:25:19,490 --> 00:25:21,799
If we tell ourselves, 
"Okay, now I'm going to define the

613
00:25:21,799 --> 00:25:23,405
entire vision for my business," 
well,

614
00:25:23,405 --> 00:25:25,363
it's actually a mountain I'm trying 
to tackle,

615
00:25:25,363 --> 00:25:27,371
and what's more, 
I've only set aside 2 hours to do

616
00:25:27,371 --> 00:25:30,879
it. Well, all of that is vague, 
and my brain doesn't want to sign

617
00:25:30,879 --> 00:25:32,574
off on that. And so, 
in cases like that,

618
00:25:32,574 --> 00:25:35,081
it's more the brain saying, 
"I don't want to write a blank

619
00:25:35,081 --> 00:25:37,900
check of mental energy when I don't 
see the meaning in it." And so

620
00:25:37,900 --> 00:25:40,413
reconnecting with the meaning, 
asking yourself, "Wait, what is the

621
00:25:40,413 --> 00:25:43,040
first small step?" Because with 
that first small step, the brain is

622
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,672
actually willing to sign off on a 
small task, but once the small task

623
00:25:45,672 --> 00:25:47,820
is done, it will want to keep 
going. And then, it will gladly

624
00:25:47,820 --> 00:25:49,596
sign off on another one, 
and another one, and on tasks that

625
00:25:49,596 --> 00:25:52,346
might get bigger and bigger. And so 
those are also mechanisms that are

626
00:25:52,346 --> 00:25:55,031
very positive for the brain, 
but not always positive for our

627
00:25:55,031 --> 00:25:57,556
whole self that really wants to 
thrive professionally.

628
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,771
There's another topic that comes to 
mind regarding procrastination.

629
00:26:00,771 --> 00:26:02,349
You see, it branches out in my 
head,

630
00:26:02,349 --> 00:26:04,362
it's the fact that, 
if I think about parents,

631
00:26:04,362 --> 00:26:06,648
they say "Ah, well, 
my child is a teenager" between

632
00:26:06,648 --> 00:26:08,987
twelve and 18, so they are moving 
towards autonomy,

633
00:26:08,987 --> 00:26:11,871
maturity, responsibility, 
they are going to be a responsible,

634
00:26:11,871 --> 00:26:13,938
autonomous adult, 
and then it doesn't happen

635
00:26:13,938 --> 00:26:16,323
overnight. We have to go through 
trial and error before changing the

636
00:26:16,323 --> 00:26:18,623
framework, the degrees of freedom, 
and realizing that sometimes there

637
00:26:18,623 --> 00:26:20,923
are parents who say "I don't know 
what to say". So we procrastinate

638
00:26:20,923 --> 00:26:23,603
daring to talk about sexuality, 
or saying "Okay, bringing up the

639
00:26:23,603 --> 00:26:26,135
topic to say where the resources 
are, or hey, if we want to talk

640
00:26:26,135 --> 00:26:28,768
about it, or"... I don't know, 
you see, supporting people is also

641
00:26:28,768 --> 00:26:31,262
a topic that touches on the human 
element. And then at some point

642
00:26:31,262 --> 00:26:33,507
there is a bit of obsolescence, 
if we've moved past it a bit, we

643
00:26:33,507 --> 00:26:35,710
tell ourselves "Well, 
if we procrastinate far enough...",

644
00:26:35,710 --> 00:26:37,911
we tell ourselves "Okay, 
at 20 it's fine, it's okay, they'll

645
00:26:37,911 --> 00:26:40,492
manage on their own". And actually, 
you see, sometimes there is an

646
00:26:40,492 --> 00:26:43,160
aspect of contextual obsolescence 
where, if we procrastinate, like

647
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,598
procrastinating on something 
intimate in a love life, but once

648
00:26:45,598 --> 00:26:48,036
there is a breakup and it's over, 
too bad, you can't turn back the

649
00:26:48,036 --> 00:26:50,923
clock. There are also consequences 
in one's intimate and love life

650
00:26:50,923 --> 00:26:53,378
that are perhaps unique, 
which don't exist elsewhere in

651
00:26:53,378 --> 00:26:55,260
life, perhaps not in the same way 
regarding

652
00:26:55,260 --> 00:26:56,670
emotions, you see, of the heart.

653
00:26:56,750 --> 00:26:58,719
What you're saying about 
obsolescence and the passage of

654
00:26:58,719 --> 00:27:00,524
time is interesting, 
because, once again, there are

655
00:27:00,524 --> 00:27:02,673
positives and negatives. That is to 
say, there are things we might

656
00:27:02,673 --> 00:27:04,204
procrastinate on, 
and then time passes and it's no

657
00:27:04,204 --> 00:27:07,491
longer necessary. Imagine, 
say, I procrastinate on signing up

658
00:27:07,491 --> 00:27:09,827
for dating apps or dating 
activities,

659
00:27:09,827 --> 00:27:12,153
for example. Well, 
actually, I can procrastinate,

660
00:27:12,153 --> 00:27:14,469
and then I find love and don't need 
it anymore, so it's a great

661
00:27:14,469 --> 00:27:17,287
procrastination—it turned out not 
to be necessary. At the same time,

662
00:27:17,287 --> 00:27:18,920
the opposite can happen, 
as you said;

663
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,920
it could be studies, 
it could be other things,

664
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,764
or maybe being at the age to have 
children—we procrastinate even

665
00:27:23,764 --> 00:27:25,133
though we might really want to.

666
00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:28,611
And we only end up creating the 
right conditions to make a decision

667
00:27:28,611 --> 00:27:31,895
when we're past 50 and the body 
unfortunately has a much harder

668
00:27:31,895 --> 00:27:35,179
time with it, so I think there's 
something interesting there.

669
00:27:35,220 --> 00:27:38,719
And time is one of the factors that 
can also influence procrastination;

670
00:27:38,719 --> 00:27:41,227
it's sometimes what's called the 
deadline effect,

671
00:27:41,227 --> 00:27:43,794
the act of saying, 
"Well, I'm going to set a deadline,

672
00:27:43,794 --> 00:27:45,894
and sometimes I'll communicate this 
date:

673
00:27:45,894 --> 00:27:48,460
OK, by this date, 
I'll do this," making a commitment.

674
00:27:48,660 --> 00:27:51,414
Well, commitments are important for 
social beings like humans,

675
00:27:51,414 --> 00:27:53,199
otherwise we get rejected from the 
group,

676
00:27:53,199 --> 00:27:55,239
and that's not great for survival, 
so actually,

677
00:27:55,239 --> 00:27:57,687
it's a method we can use, 
but one that I think should be used

678
00:27:57,687 --> 00:27:59,820
with caution because these are 
pressure tactics.

679
00:27:59,820 --> 00:28:02,574
Talking to people about it or 
watching time slip away creates

680
00:28:02,574 --> 00:28:04,889
pressure. And there are people who 
already have too much pressure, who

681
00:28:04,889 --> 00:28:06,938
don't need it, who might already be 
on the verge of burnout and don't

682
00:28:06,938 --> 00:28:09,083
need to add any more, 
so... You also have to know how to

683
00:28:09,083 --> 00:28:12,340
respect yourself when using these 
anti-procrastination tools.

684
00:28:12,380 --> 00:28:15,216
Thank you. That reminds me, 
in the field of slow sex,

685
00:28:15,216 --> 00:28:16,918
we like to use the word tumescence,

686
00:28:16,918 --> 00:28:20,098
for some people. So tumescence is, 
ultimately it means erection,

687
00:28:20,098 --> 00:28:22,810
it's the rush of blood, 
so biologically that's what it is.

688
00:28:22,810 --> 00:28:25,474
But tumescence is kind of the 
buildup of pressure,

689
00:28:25,474 --> 00:28:28,010
and doing nothing about it, 
so you get used to it,

690
00:28:28,010 --> 00:28:31,283
you accept it. And I reflect that 
sometimes we procrastinate so

691
00:28:31,283 --> 00:28:33,395
much—for instance, 
I'll take an example,

692
00:28:33,395 --> 00:28:35,446
I learned this in my engineering 
career,

693
00:28:35,446 --> 00:28:37,618
during classes on 'Okay, 
you're a manager,

694
00:28:37,618 --> 00:28:39,608
you want to face a different 
reality?'.

695
00:28:39,650 --> 00:28:41,915
And realizing, 'Look, 
often people on your team might

696
00:28:41,915 --> 00:28:43,827
procrastinate on expressing what 
they want,

697
00:28:43,827 --> 00:28:46,153
on asking for a raise, 
they procrastinate.' And then the

698
00:28:46,153 --> 00:28:48,269
day they make up their mind, 
it's urgent, there's pressure,

699
00:28:48,269 --> 00:28:50,301
there's an ultimatum, 
it's this or nothing, and so you're

700
00:28:50,301 --> 00:28:52,848
left managing a genuine emergency. 
So they've been thinking about it

701
00:28:52,848 --> 00:28:55,236
for two years, and then they work 
up the nerve to say, 'I'm going to

702
00:28:55,236 --> 00:28:56,783
talk to my boss, 
I want this,' and it's a bit

703
00:28:56,783 --> 00:28:58,630
clumsy, it's blunt, 
it's raw. And you end up with

704
00:28:58,630 --> 00:29:00,920
something super uncomfortable, 
confronting, you have no

705
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,573
perspective, you haven't prepared. 
And the advice here is to say,

706
00:29:03,573 --> 00:29:05,996
'Okay, this will happen, 
but rather than putting it off, say

707
00:29:05,996 --> 00:29:08,544
okay, how long did it take you? Can 
you give me a little time to think

708
00:29:08,544 --> 00:29:11,170
about it? I'll talk to management, 
I'll see what we can do.

709
00:29:11,170 --> 00:29:13,279
Let's set up a meeting to really 
understand, to give ourselves time,

710
00:29:13,279 --> 00:29:15,352
because sometimes we procrastinate, 
and this tumescence leads to

711
00:29:15,352 --> 00:29:17,838
issuing an ultimatum...' And the 
pressure—wow, we transfer it onto

712
00:29:17,838 --> 00:29:20,309
someone else: Whoosh whoosh whoosh 
whoosh whoosh! 'Here, take it, I'm

713
00:29:20,309 --> 00:29:22,573
passing you the hot potato,' and 
'Damn, what are we supposed to do

714
00:29:22,573 --> 00:29:25,046
with this?' In couples sometimes, 
when talking about sexuality, it's

715
00:29:25,046 --> 00:29:27,532
kind of like that too. When the 
other person brings it up, you feel

716
00:29:27,532 --> 00:29:30,344
like, 'Wow! I feel the pressure 
that this represents for you,' and

717
00:29:30,344 --> 00:29:32,824
that's when things can spiral out 
of control all the faster if we

718
00:29:32,824 --> 00:29:34,600
don't realize this principle of 
tumescence.

719
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,014
That's interesting, 
it makes me think about the hidden

720
00:29:37,014 --> 00:29:38,200
costs of procrastination.

721
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,269
I usually start my talks on 
procrastination,

722
00:29:40,269 --> 00:29:42,991
whether in companies or in the 
online masterclasses I give,

723
00:29:42,991 --> 00:29:45,657
by talking about the cost, 
and saying that there are a lot of

724
00:29:45,657 --> 00:29:47,621
hidden costs. It can be financial 
costs:

725
00:29:47,621 --> 00:29:50,025
like a fine, late fees, 
a raise you don't ask for for

726
00:29:50,025 --> 00:29:53,061
years, a job you don't change, 
daring to call clients—you know,

727
00:29:53,061 --> 00:29:56,155
there are plenty of things that can 
have direct financial costs,

728
00:29:56,155 --> 00:29:57,640
that's what I'm talking about.

729
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,357
Then there are other costs like: 
well, costs maybe, I don't know, to

730
00:30:00,357 --> 00:30:03,322
self-esteem, from feeling worse and 
worse about yourself because you've

731
00:30:03,322 --> 00:30:05,653
procrastinated. There are 
relational costs because,

732
00:30:05,653 --> 00:30:08,349
well, since you procrastinate it 
actually annoys people, and then

733
00:30:08,349 --> 00:30:10,852
maybe later there's a couple 
breaking up, there can be lots and

734
00:30:10,852 --> 00:30:12,798
lots of things. And all these more 
human,

735
00:30:12,798 --> 00:30:15,536
more personal costs, 
well, we don't always highlight

736
00:30:15,536 --> 00:30:18,618
them. The cost to health, 
taking care of yourself by eating

737
00:30:18,618 --> 00:30:19,880
well, exercising, 
etc.

738
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,273
If you put it off for 20 years, 
you risk paying the price at some

739
00:30:23,273 --> 00:30:25,400
point when your body risks paying 
for it.

740
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,991
My therapist's eye makes me wonder:

741
00:30:27,991 --> 00:30:30,882
why do we put off this discussion 
so much,

742
00:30:30,882 --> 00:30:33,517
why do we put off this project so 
much.

743
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,862
I think it serves some purpose, 
and that's kind of what you need to

744
00:30:37,862 --> 00:30:40,173
pause on, step back and say, 
"Okay,

745
00:30:40,173 --> 00:30:43,599
why is this project taking so long 
to come together?

746
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,465
Actually, maybe it's because I'm 
afraid,

747
00:30:46,465 --> 00:30:48,898
maybe it's because I'm limiting 
myself,

748
00:30:48,898 --> 00:30:51,619
because I lack funding." And it's 
great,

749
00:30:51,619 --> 00:30:53,785
I think, to step back and say, 
"Okay,

750
00:30:53,785 --> 00:30:55,518
things are stuck here, 
why?"

751
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,200
Yeah. And that reminds me, 
you know, in slow sex we also talk

752
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,302
about... I like that, 
you talk about hidden costs, but

753
00:31:00,302 --> 00:31:03,000
there are also hidden benefits, 
what people don't dare to say: "Why

754
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,596
procrastinate? I get benefits from 
it!". Which is sometimes

755
00:31:05,596 --> 00:31:07,480
politically incorrect? I leave the 
ball in the other person's court.

756
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,208
Sometimes people procrastinate by 
saying—as you were saying in a

757
00:31:10,208 --> 00:31:12,457
discussion before the 
podcast—"Romance, we think the

758
00:31:12,457 --> 00:31:14,900
other person will guess or the 
other person will, oh, if I say

759
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:17,734
everything it spoils their mood, 
so the other person will eventually

760
00:31:17,734 --> 00:31:19,602
understand. I want to leave it...". 
Anyway,

761
00:31:19,602 --> 00:31:21,150
it's a bit of a guessing game.

762
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:22,870
And that aspect, 
the benefit, is saying, well, the

763
00:31:22,870 --> 00:31:25,070
other person will take the risk of 
having to put things into words,

764
00:31:25,070 --> 00:31:27,270
and so they're the one making the 
first move, so they're the one who

765
00:31:27,270 --> 00:31:29,230
might get the first slap, 
get shot down, hit the first wall,

766
00:31:29,230 --> 00:31:31,510
have the door slammed on them, 
whatever, or face misunderstanding,

767
00:31:31,510 --> 00:31:33,390
and thinking, "Oh yeah, 
there are hidden benefits to not

768
00:31:33,390 --> 00:31:35,940
doing it. And if I'm honest with 
myself, why do I leave the ball in

769
00:31:35,940 --> 00:31:38,567
someone else's court," or up to 
life, you know? (Johan Schuiten:

770
00:31:38,567 --> 00:31:41,719
Yes, absolutely) To someone else, 
meaning I don't take action? Well,

771
00:31:41,719 --> 00:31:43,624
actually, it feels good because, 
well,

772
00:31:43,624 --> 00:31:44,893
I stay in my comfort zone or

773
00:31:44,893 --> 00:31:45,989
my routine, whatever.

774
00:31:46,110 --> 00:31:48,771
What you're saying is very true, 
and I think stepping back allows

775
00:31:48,771 --> 00:31:51,336
you to become aware of things and 
then figure out what to do with

776
00:31:51,336 --> 00:31:53,651
that, and say, "Oh yeah, 
actually it's true that I'm also

777
00:31:53,651 --> 00:31:55,917
doing this for myself, 
whereas I was thinking the other

778
00:31:55,917 --> 00:31:58,430
person was being selfish, 
but actually here I'm the one being

779
00:31:58,430 --> 00:32:00,971
selfish," so it helps put things 
into perspective. Maybe an

780
00:32:00,971 --> 00:32:02,926
important point that I haven't 
mentioned,

781
00:32:02,926 --> 00:32:04,936
but which starts getting into some 
details,

782
00:32:04,936 --> 00:32:07,707
is that procrastination, 
for me, is always multifactorial,

783
00:32:07,707 --> 00:32:11,114
and so there's always this thing of 
"Is it clear to me?" "Will it feel

784
00:32:11,114 --> 00:32:15,205
safe, and therefore will it be 
painful or not?" For example,

785
00:32:15,205 --> 00:32:17,766
how good of shape we're in, 
all of that is important,

786
00:32:17,766 --> 00:32:20,620
this baseline, because sometimes we 
won't find a reason.

787
00:32:20,660 --> 00:32:22,434
We'll think to ourselves, 
"I just don't understand why I'm

788
00:32:22,434 --> 00:32:25,060
procrastinating right now." And if 
I take an example for myself, there

789
00:32:25,060 --> 00:32:27,383
are times when I know I'm 
procrastinating on things and I

790
00:32:27,383 --> 00:32:29,348
can't seem to find the factor. And 
actually,

791
00:32:29,348 --> 00:32:32,480
the factor is simply "I'm doing too 
many things," so in reality I don't

792
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,424
physically have the time to do 
everything;

793
00:32:34,424 --> 00:32:36,692
since I'm optimistic, 
I cram a month into one week,

794
00:32:36,692 --> 00:32:38,900
and as a result, 
I procrastinate on those things.

795
00:32:38,900 --> 00:32:41,057
And because I do it every week, 
and my order of priorities

796
00:32:41,057 --> 00:32:43,349
sometimes doesn't change, 
well, it's always the same thing

797
00:32:43,349 --> 00:32:46,757
that gets pushed back. And it's not 
directly a matter of "I'm afraid,

798
00:32:46,757 --> 00:32:49,758
I need to ask myself these 
questions." On the other hand,

799
00:32:49,758 --> 00:32:52,159
it allows me to ask another 
question that is just as

800
00:32:52,159 --> 00:32:53,932
interesting, if not more important:

801
00:32:53,932 --> 00:32:55,418
what is important to me in life?

802
00:32:55,500 --> 00:32:56,780
What is essential?

803
00:32:56,820 --> 00:33:01,539
Am I filling my life with sand and 
running out of room for the

804
00:33:01,539 --> 00:33:04,140
big rocks that matter a lot to me?

805
00:33:04,180 --> 00:33:06,923
And actually, at that point, 
it makes you realize that maybe

806
00:33:06,923 --> 00:33:09,831
you're lying to yourself—this 
project that is important to us,

807
00:33:09,831 --> 00:33:11,860
we're not giving it the space it 
should have.

808
00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:15,354
I think intimate life is the same; 
maybe if we ask—I'd be curious to

809
00:33:15,354 --> 00:33:17,237
hear your take—but if we ask 
people,

810
00:33:17,237 --> 00:33:19,246
"How important is your intimate 
life,

811
00:33:19,246 --> 00:33:21,640
sex, in your life?" People might 
tell me,

812
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,922
"It's very important to me," and 
then we ask,

813
00:33:23,922 --> 00:33:25,773
"How much space, how much time do 
you

814
00:33:25,773 --> 00:33:27,250
dedicate to it?" "Oh? Zero."

815
00:33:27,770 --> 00:33:30,348
There are actually fairly recent 
studies on this,

816
00:33:30,348 --> 00:33:33,724
on the—it's a 2024 French study 
showing that French people aren't

817
00:33:33,724 --> 00:33:34,767
having sex anymore.

818
00:33:34,770 --> 00:33:38,787
And why? Apparently, 
TV series and movies are

819
00:33:38,787 --> 00:33:42,410
prioritized over intimacy, 
which raises questions.

820
00:33:42,410 --> 00:33:46,048
Why we might also procrastinate 
having sex with our

821
00:33:46,048 --> 00:33:47,570
partner or partners.

822
00:33:47,690 --> 00:33:50,852
Personally, I think it's a great 
question to ask our listeners,

823
00:33:50,852 --> 00:33:52,761
to ask ourselves deeply, 
from me to me,

824
00:33:52,761 --> 00:33:54,729
"Why is sexuality secondary in my 
life?

825
00:33:54,770 --> 00:33:57,353
It isn't priority number one." We 
easily prioritize work,

826
00:33:57,353 --> 00:33:59,338
family, kids, friends, 
music lessons,

827
00:33:59,338 --> 00:34:01,742
or whatever because it's socially 
acceptable,

828
00:34:01,742 --> 00:34:04,746
and then we think sexuality, 
well in the best-case scenario

829
00:34:04,746 --> 00:34:06,908
sometimes, if I want to give it 
importance,

830
00:34:06,908 --> 00:34:10,274
it's late at night when we're tired 
on a Saturday night and we've had

831
00:34:10,274 --> 00:34:12,617
too much to drink, 
I don't know, but you see that

832
00:34:12,617 --> 00:34:15,459
tired side of it. And in the end, 
we put ourselves in the worst

833
00:34:15,459 --> 00:34:17,964
conditions to try to enjoy 
sexuality because we always

834
00:34:17,964 --> 00:34:21,177
postpone it; how can it evolve into 
well-being if it's never a priority

835
00:34:21,177 --> 00:34:24,505
in our lives? For me, 
that's a question I genuinely asked

836
00:34:24,505 --> 00:34:27,619
myself when I went through my 
burnout in 2000-2016.

837
00:34:27,660 --> 00:34:30,211
And I told myself, 
"Yes, sexuality is important,

838
00:34:30,211 --> 00:34:32,388
and I want to have a career that's 
aligned,

839
00:34:32,388 --> 00:34:33,818
that helps me stay on track.

840
00:34:33,820 --> 00:34:36,564
A job that helps me support the 
relational and sexual quality of

841
00:34:36,564 --> 00:34:39,258
life that I want to bring into my 
life." I want it so that if

842
00:34:39,258 --> 00:34:40,877
sexuality is a priority in my life,

843
00:34:40,877 --> 00:34:43,443
if in the morning my partner and I 
feel like making love,

844
00:34:43,443 --> 00:34:45,451
right then and there it's, 
"Okay, I'm down,

845
00:34:45,451 --> 00:34:47,795
let's do it." And too bad, 
I shift my schedule;

846
00:34:47,795 --> 00:34:50,559
I work hard enough so that when 
these moments happen,

847
00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:51,940
that's also the priority.

848
00:34:51,980 --> 00:34:54,983
And so I can reschedule sometimes, 
and I'm honest with people—when it

849
00:34:54,983 --> 00:34:57,676
happens, I say, 'Sorry I'm late,' 
or 'Something came up,' but I

850
00:34:57,676 --> 00:34:59,177
actually explain, 
I don't hide it,

851
00:34:59,177 --> 00:35:00,780
I say it: sexuality is part of my 
life.

852
00:35:00,780 --> 00:35:03,854
And it's happened often in recent 
years where I tell people—just this

853
00:35:03,854 --> 00:35:05,391
week, to a friend, 
Nicolas, I said,

854
00:35:05,391 --> 00:35:07,925
'Listen, this, that, 
and the other happened.' And it's

855
00:35:07,925 --> 00:35:09,987
true that, well, 
my wife is going through

856
00:35:09,987 --> 00:35:12,656
perimenopause, lower libido, 
but like at 1:30 a.m.,

857
00:35:12,656 --> 00:35:15,135
'I really want to...'" And it had 
been so long since she felt like it

858
00:35:15,135 --> 00:35:17,051
that I told her, 
"Okay." The next day, impossible to

859
00:35:17,051 --> 00:35:18,816
get up, I didn't even hear the 
alarm clock;

860
00:35:18,816 --> 00:35:20,985
I said, 'Listen: 
Sorry I'm late to our work meeting,

861
00:35:20,985 --> 00:35:23,089
but here's the context.' I have no 
excuses,

862
00:35:23,089 --> 00:35:25,652
I made a choice, 
I owned it, we went to sleep at

863
00:35:25,652 --> 00:35:27,799
2:30- 3:00 a.m., 
and in the end, yeah,

864
00:35:27,799 --> 00:35:31,333
I get up a bit later and say 'I own 
it,' I don't make it an awkward

865
00:35:31,333 --> 00:35:33,619
topic. And I don't want to make 
excuses;

866
00:35:33,619 --> 00:35:36,530
it's a choice and that's the one I 
wanted to uphold,

867
00:35:36,530 --> 00:35:40,273
but really, seeing even in my 
parents' lives or others around me,

868
00:35:40,273 --> 00:35:42,769
people who always put it on the 
back burner,

869
00:35:42,769 --> 00:35:46,304
how can it actually become a source 
of fulfillment if we don't

870
00:35:46,304 --> 00:35:47,690
dedicate any time to it?

871
00:35:47,850 --> 00:35:50,632
I think what you're saying is 
beautiful—first of all,

872
00:35:50,632 --> 00:35:53,290
having made it a priority, 
despite life's demands.

873
00:35:53,330 --> 00:35:55,122
Normally, you're caught in the 
daily grind: you have to go to bed

874
00:35:55,122 --> 00:35:56,812
early, you have to be in good shape 
for your job that starts at

875
00:35:56,812 --> 00:35:58,457
such-and-such time, 
and so on. And just telling

876
00:35:58,457 --> 00:36:00,066
yourself, 'Actually, 
no, right now,

877
00:36:00,066 --> 00:36:02,434
this is the priority.' And so I'm 
going to do it, and I'll own it

878
00:36:02,434 --> 00:36:04,447
afterward. Like you say, 
it's not an excuse; it's just the

879
00:36:04,447 --> 00:36:06,450
reason, and I want to be 
transparent about it. And on top of

880
00:36:06,450 --> 00:36:08,690
that, there's a bit of an activist 
side to being able to show that, so

881
00:36:08,690 --> 00:36:11,167
I think it's great, 
I think it's beautiful. And I think

882
00:36:11,167 --> 00:36:13,481
it impacts the people around you 
and moves things

883
00:36:13,481 --> 00:36:14,779
toward greater awareness.

884
00:36:14,820 --> 00:36:19,409
Yeah, it's very beautiful, 
it's really great when everyone can

885
00:36:19,409 --> 00:36:22,700
afford to do that, 
but in a life where you have a

886
00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:25,644
boss, you have scheduling 
obligations,

887
00:36:25,644 --> 00:36:28,692
and so on. Sometimes, 
I have patients who tell me,

888
00:36:28,692 --> 00:36:32,055
'Yeah, but we don't have time—I'm 
part of an association,

889
00:36:32,055 --> 00:36:34,227
I have a job, we work irregular 
hours,

890
00:36:34,227 --> 00:36:36,759
etc.' I say, 'Okay, 
do you have time to do your grocery

891
00:36:36,759 --> 00:36:39,392
shopping?' 'Yes.' 'Okay, 
is sex important to you?' 'Yes,

892
00:36:39,392 --> 00:36:41,802
absolutely, if I'm here it's 
because it is.' I say,

893
00:36:41,802 --> 00:36:44,334
'Okay, well, even if it's less 
spontaneous,

894
00:36:44,334 --> 00:36:45,700
put it on your calendar.

895
00:36:45,740 --> 00:36:48,788
Prepare for that moment, 
give it importance if it brings

896
00:36:48,788 --> 00:36:51,383
pleasure to both of you, 
put it on your schedule;

897
00:36:51,383 --> 00:36:54,624
if it's one of your priorities, 
then just pencil it into your

898
00:36:54,624 --> 00:36:55,660
planner, really.'

899
00:36:55,980 --> 00:36:58,450
Yeah, it's crazy that there are 
social constraints where,

900
00:36:58,450 --> 00:37:00,719
you know? Potentially, 
we don't have time to get sick,

901
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,289
and yet when we're sick, 
we're forced to cancel appointments

902
00:37:03,289 --> 00:37:04,498
and say I'm not going to work.

903
00:37:04,740 --> 00:37:06,464
And we get a doctor's note so it's 
like,

904
00:37:06,464 --> 00:37:08,793
"Okay, I have an alibi." But the 
fact is you're sick, who cares

905
00:37:08,793 --> 00:37:11,016
whether a doctor says yes or no—I 
get it, there are rules and people

906
00:37:11,016 --> 00:37:13,684
shouldn't abuse them or... I 
understand the logic behind it,

907
00:37:13,684 --> 00:37:16,258
but still, there's that thing, 
just like menstruation:

908
00:37:16,258 --> 00:37:18,722
for women, well, 
there are unpredictable factors and

909
00:37:18,722 --> 00:37:20,914
saying, "Well today, 
due to my menstrual cycle,

910
00:37:20,914 --> 00:37:23,233
this is how I feel." We didn't 
choose it;

911
00:37:23,233 --> 00:37:25,439
we could say, "Yeah sorry, 
because of this,

912
00:37:25,439 --> 00:37:27,030
here's how I'm adapting my day.

913
00:37:27,150 --> 00:37:29,390
It's not to anyone's detriment, 
it's about listening to myself."

914
00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:32,018
Because if we're constantly in our 
heads, as you say, there's the

915
00:37:32,018 --> 00:37:34,159
heart and the body, 
and menstruation is also the body

916
00:37:34,159 --> 00:37:36,349
having its own rhythm, 
the heart also saying listen to

917
00:37:36,349 --> 00:37:39,229
yourself. And then ultimately the 
head always takes over again and

918
00:37:39,229 --> 00:37:41,679
we'll say, "I understand, 
well, I'm disconnected from my

919
00:37:41,679 --> 00:37:44,088
body." But menstruation is already 
a huge avenue,

920
00:37:44,088 --> 00:37:47,235
a fabulous gateway for women to 
connect with themselves and say,

921
00:37:47,235 --> 00:37:49,275
"Okay, without my body I'm going 
nowhere,

922
00:37:49,275 --> 00:37:51,899
so it comes first. If this morning 
I'm not feeling well,

923
00:37:51,899 --> 00:37:54,381
I can tell my boss sorry; 
maybe that way we'll actually

924
00:37:54,381 --> 00:37:56,808
change social rules, 
or habits, social traditions,

925
00:37:56,808 --> 00:37:58,959
to say, "Well, it's normal to allow 
ourselves,

926
00:37:58,959 --> 00:38:01,772
when these intimate areas 
are—accepting to experience them

927
00:38:01,772 --> 00:38:03,150
fully" (Fanny Galodé: 
Yeah).

928
00:38:03,310 --> 00:38:05,052
We are, we're still animals after 
all,

929
00:38:05,052 --> 00:38:07,909
too. Behind me there's a 
screensaver with dolphins and I

930
00:38:07,909 --> 00:38:10,872
say, "What does procrastination 
look like in dolphins?" -

931
00:38:10,872 --> 00:38:13,469
Laughter - But there you go, 
we're animals and I say,

932
00:38:13,469 --> 00:38:15,161
"Our body is right here, 
you know?

933
00:38:15,161 --> 00:38:16,369
We're not just a brain."

934
00:38:16,420 --> 00:38:18,601
So clearly that makes me think of 
something:

935
00:38:18,601 --> 00:38:21,135
procrastination, in my opinion, 
is also linked to,

936
00:38:21,135 --> 00:38:22,900
or rather heightened by, 
hormones.

937
00:38:22,940 --> 00:38:25,857
There's the reward—we talked about 
it regarding the appealing aspect

938
00:38:25,857 --> 00:38:28,773
and this reward—and this impatience 
you mentioned, which is linked to

939
00:38:28,773 --> 00:38:30,543
dopamine. And so, 
well in terms of that,

940
00:38:30,543 --> 00:38:32,969
we're not all equal when it comes 
to dopamine either.

941
00:38:32,969 --> 00:38:35,615
There are people whose profile, 
apparently in the brain,

942
00:38:35,615 --> 00:38:37,435
processes dopamine less 
efficiently,

943
00:38:37,435 --> 00:38:40,575
and who are consequently a bit more 
dependent on and sensitive to it;

944
00:38:40,575 --> 00:38:42,395
among others, neurodivergent 
people,

945
00:38:42,395 --> 00:38:44,380
ADHD, are said to be very sensitive 
to that.

946
00:38:44,380 --> 00:38:47,361
And I get the impression there are 
a lot more procrastinators among

947
00:38:47,361 --> 00:38:49,700
those profiles, which makes it an 
even bigger topic.

948
00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:52,770
And that also explains why there 
are effects with menopause and with

949
00:38:52,770 --> 00:38:55,031
men's hormones too; 
we have fluctuations as well,

950
00:38:55,031 --> 00:38:58,100
we apparently have 24-hour cycles, 
so it shifts throughout the day.

951
00:38:58,140 --> 00:39:00,260
And so it's normal that there are 
times when we work better.

952
00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:02,896
Personally, I've noticed that I 
procrastinate much—generally much

953
00:39:02,896 --> 00:39:05,402
less—I have more energy in the 
morning than in the afternoon. And

954
00:39:05,402 --> 00:39:08,807
some women I've coached told me 
that their ADHD was stronger during

955
00:39:08,807 --> 00:39:11,909
certain weeks of their cycle and 
much less intense in others.

956
00:39:11,950 --> 00:39:14,407
So, what I found was that she was 
very smart to think,

957
00:39:14,407 --> 00:39:17,036
"I'm going to use this as a 
strength and tell myself I'll

958
00:39:17,036 --> 00:39:20,349
schedule all my business meetings 
during the peak phases of my cycle.

959
00:39:20,350 --> 00:39:23,600
And conversely, tasks that will 
perhaps require less energy from me

960
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,995
or that will be, 
let's say, more suited," because I

961
00:39:25,995 --> 00:39:28,902
don't know exactly what tasks are 
most suited in those cases,

962
00:39:28,902 --> 00:39:30,442
but maybe more reflective ones.

963
00:39:30,442 --> 00:39:32,496
People also sometimes talk about 
seasons,

964
00:39:32,496 --> 00:39:35,176
saying we all need a bit of 
hibernation from time to time,

965
00:39:35,176 --> 00:39:38,256
and why not synchronize this 
hibernation our body needs with our

966
00:39:38,256 --> 00:39:40,767
business planning, 
or when you're an entrepreneur,

967
00:39:40,767 --> 00:39:42,135
or just in life quite simply.

968
00:39:42,350 --> 00:39:44,488
Yeah, that's beautiful. Like you 
say, we are actually very in our

969
00:39:44,488 --> 00:39:46,750
heads, and in fact sometimes we 
lack rationality.

970
00:39:46,750 --> 00:39:48,454
If, as you say, we tell ourselves, 
"Well,

971
00:39:48,454 --> 00:39:50,760
in my menstrual cycle, 
this is the time when I can do this

972
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,615
activity," but if that's three days 
a month,

973
00:39:52,615 --> 00:39:54,720
for example, well, 
you have to be rational and say,

974
00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:57,127
"In my window, I have three days a 
month where I can do that,

975
00:39:57,127 --> 00:39:59,783
so how many projects can I take on 
or at what reasonable pace can I

976
00:39:59,783 --> 00:40:02,041
make progress?", 
rather than believing that I suffer

977
00:40:02,041 --> 00:40:03,997
from procrastination when there are 
natural,

978
00:40:03,997 --> 00:40:06,604
biological cycles and rhythms, 
and that you have to bring some

979
00:40:06,604 --> 00:40:08,711
rationality into what seems 
imperceptible to us,

980
00:40:08,711 --> 00:40:11,519
you see, clarifying procrastination 
would allow us to be much more

981
00:40:11,519 --> 00:40:13,674
logical, efficient, 
rational, or at peace with it.

982
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:15,891
And the idea of impatience also 
comes to mind, I don't know if

983
00:40:15,891 --> 00:40:18,447
that's... As an engineer, 
I liked studying opposites,

984
00:40:18,447 --> 00:40:20,994
you know, for example saying, 
"Hey, why is there adhesion and

985
00:40:20,994 --> 00:40:23,954
sticking, or why is that an issue?" 
And I tried to understand how you

986
00:40:23,954 --> 00:40:25,809
do the opposite or how you 
accentuate it,

987
00:40:25,809 --> 00:40:28,353
or go the other way. And have you 
ever studied the opposite of

988
00:40:28,353 --> 00:40:30,755
procrastination, which could 
perhaps be on the spectrum of

989
00:40:30,755 --> 00:40:33,960
impatience to do everything too 
quickly? That could be comical.

990
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,240
Yes. Yeah, that's funny.

991
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,864
That resonates with me because I 
almost want to say that some people

992
00:40:39,864 --> 00:40:41,400
might call that flow, 
maybe.

993
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,264
The idea of telling yourself, 
"Right,

994
00:40:43,264 --> 00:40:45,544
I've decided to do one thing and 
I'm going all in,

995
00:40:45,544 --> 00:40:48,280
nothing distracts me, 
and it happens right here and now."

996
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,960
Another way I sometimes describe it 
to myself is freestyle.

997
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,478
And before, well, 
I used to watch how others played

998
00:40:54,478 --> 00:40:57,547
the entrepreneurship game, 
and they would block time in their

999
00:40:57,547 --> 00:41:00,675
calendar, following that schedule 
with rigor and discipline.

1000
00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:03,481
And I'm someone capable of applying 
a lot of discipline,

1001
00:41:03,481 --> 00:41:06,480
a lot of rigor because I have 
plenty of willpower and energy to

1002
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,770
do it, but I can't sustain it over 
the long haul.

1003
00:41:08,890 --> 00:41:10,437
After a week, a month, 
two months,

1004
00:41:10,437 --> 00:41:11,930
it completely drains my energy.

1005
00:41:11,970 --> 00:41:15,405
And actually, the opposite of that 
is ultimately—and this aligns with

1006
00:41:15,405 --> 00:41:17,209
one of my convictions, 
which is very,

1007
00:41:17,209 --> 00:41:19,537
very strong—to say, 
"What if I just let myself be

1008
00:41:19,537 --> 00:41:21,282
guided by my momentum, 
my impulses,

1009
00:41:21,282 --> 00:41:24,485
my energy, and did whatever I felt 
like doing the moment I felt like

1010
00:41:24,485 --> 00:41:26,842
doing it?" And that, 
to me, is actually the opposite of

1011
00:41:26,842 --> 00:41:28,985
procrastination in a way, 
or at least of control and

1012
00:41:28,985 --> 00:41:31,724
procrastination, because you 
actually do things, and you only do

1013
00:41:31,724 --> 00:41:34,654
what you feel like doing. Whereas 
procrastination is sometimes

1014
00:41:34,654 --> 00:41:36,899
deciding to do something you don't 
feel like doing,

1015
00:41:36,899 --> 00:41:39,084
in a sense. And so you just let 
yourself go with the flow. My

1016
00:41:39,084 --> 00:41:42,087
conviction is that for human beings 
to thrive,

1017
00:41:42,087 --> 00:41:45,475
they need to be in a secure and 
minimalist framework,

1018
00:41:45,475 --> 00:41:48,090
so that it allows them maximum 
autonomy.

1019
00:41:48,130 --> 00:41:51,371
And when you look at it, 
now my schedule today is:

1020
00:41:51,371 --> 00:41:53,803
in the morning, I work for my 
future,

1021
00:41:53,803 --> 00:41:57,354
and I tell myself, 
"That's one task per morning." The

1022
00:41:57,354 --> 00:42:00,046
task, I really decide on the spot, 
based on my energy,

1023
00:42:00,046 --> 00:42:02,678
based on what I feel like doing, 
and I see how it goes.

1024
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,591
The afternoon is for my coaching 
sessions,

1025
00:42:04,591 --> 00:42:07,143
and when I have free time, 
when I don't have coaching in the

1026
00:42:07,143 --> 00:42:09,959
afternoon, it's freestyle—that's 
what I wrote in my calendar.

1027
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,597
So I know I'm going to get plenty 
of tasks done, I know I'm going to

1028
00:42:12,597 --> 00:42:15,047
flit around from one thing to 
another, because that's how my

1029
00:42:15,047 --> 00:42:17,694
brain works; since I have ADHD, 
well, my brain gets distracted by

1030
00:42:17,694 --> 00:42:20,391
something, but the moment I'm 
distracted, it's already too late.

1031
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,254
I've already paid the switching 
cost and I have the urge to pay

1032
00:42:23,254 --> 00:42:24,760
that bill or reply to that email.

1033
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,410
So before, I used to tell myself, 
"No, no, stay focused, get back to

1034
00:42:27,410 --> 00:42:30,043
it." And that drained way too much 
of my energy, whereas now I just

1035
00:42:30,043 --> 00:42:31,771
dive in, I do it, 
and so I jump from one task to

1036
00:42:31,771 --> 00:42:33,876
another. It's completely 
disorganized,

1037
00:42:33,876 --> 00:42:35,799
but I knock out tasks in the 
meantime.

1038
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,146
And so if I do tasks that are 
meaningful to me,

1039
00:42:38,146 --> 00:42:40,200
I actually make progress and I'm 
happy.

1040
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:43,595
So I stopped making to-do lists, 
because to-do lists put pressure on

1041
00:42:43,595 --> 00:42:45,628
me and control me. And now, 
in fact,

1042
00:42:45,628 --> 00:42:46,680
I make anti-to-dos.

1043
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:49,173
Meaning that at the end of the day, 
or at the end of the month, at the

1044
00:42:49,173 --> 00:42:50,670
end of the week, 
I ask myself, "What did I

1045
00:42:50,670 --> 00:42:53,184
accomplish here?" So I don't have—I 
tell myself,

1046
00:42:53,184 --> 00:42:55,937
"I'll go through my day, 
I'll see what I end up doing," and

1047
00:42:55,937 --> 00:42:57,695
then at the end I say, 
"Oh, I did this,

1048
00:42:57,695 --> 00:43:00,246
I did that, I did that." And 
generally there are one or two

1049
00:43:00,246 --> 00:43:02,932
tasks that are important to me, 
and then there are four or five,

1050
00:43:02,932 --> 00:43:05,776
or even ten tiny ones that I might 
have postponed for a long time and

1051
00:43:05,776 --> 00:43:07,370
that I'm really glad to have done 
now.

1052
00:43:07,370 --> 00:43:08,516
And I tell myself, 
"Well, actually, I made good

1053
00:43:08,516 --> 00:43:11,208
progress." So instead of ending my 
day saying, "I'm worthless, I

1054
00:43:11,208 --> 00:43:12,655
messed up again," I tell myself,

1055
00:43:12,655 --> 00:43:13,888
"It's all good, I'm happy."

1056
00:43:13,890 --> 00:43:15,692
I love this anti-to-do list advice,

1057
00:43:15,692 --> 00:43:18,336
having the mindfulness to revisit 
the past few days,

1058
00:43:18,336 --> 00:43:20,078
or the day, taking stock at the 
end,

1059
00:43:20,078 --> 00:43:22,123
maybe feeling gratitude for one's 
life,

1060
00:43:22,123 --> 00:43:23,806
and congratulating oneself too.

1061
00:43:23,810 --> 00:43:26,169
"I was efficient and productive, 
I actually got all that done.

1062
00:43:26,210 --> 00:43:28,181
Sooner or later I would have had to 
do it. Maybe I'm doing it too

1063
00:43:28,181 --> 00:43:29,886
early, a bit late, 
but anyway, I have the momentum,

1064
00:43:29,886 --> 00:43:31,930
I'm doing it. And at the end of the 
day, "Wow, I did all that, you

1065
00:43:31,930 --> 00:43:34,395
know. I saw what I managed to do, 
even though I'm not a machine, you

1066
00:43:34,395 --> 00:43:36,671
know," getting something 
accomplished. Because besides, we

1067
00:43:36,671 --> 00:43:38,540
know that generally, 
we don't like knowing everything in

1068
00:43:38,540 --> 00:43:41,246
advance. If we knew the script for 
sexuality in advance, we wouldn't

1069
00:43:41,246 --> 00:43:43,738
have any appetite or desire; 
you actually need spontaneity,

1070
00:43:43,738 --> 00:43:46,409
sexual energy, vitality. You need 
something spontaneous,

1071
00:43:46,409 --> 00:43:48,691
uncontrolled too, 
and nevertheless we are super

1072
00:43:48,691 --> 00:43:49,970
efficient and productive.

1073
00:43:50,170 --> 00:43:52,554
I love your anti-to-do list, 
I've never heard of that before,

1074
00:43:52,554 --> 00:43:54,609
and if you don't mind, 
I'm going to adopt it in my life.

1075
00:43:55,130 --> 00:43:56,130
With great pleasure.

1076
00:43:56,130 --> 00:43:57,650
Yeah, I like this concept too - 
Laughs.

1077
00:43:58,010 --> 00:44:01,577
Is there another topic you prepared 
since we scheduled this podcast

1078
00:44:01,577 --> 00:44:02,640
recording session?

1079
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,000
An extra thing you would like to 
share?

1080
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,774
There is one thing we haven't 
touched on that really speaks to me

1081
00:44:07,774 --> 00:44:10,656
as a coach. As Fanny was saying, 
there's the emotional,

1082
00:44:10,656 --> 00:44:13,830
psychological, safety aspect—call 
it what you want—but to me,

1083
00:44:13,830 --> 00:44:15,746
sexuality is, well, 
sometimes taboo;

1084
00:44:15,746 --> 00:44:17,960
it reflects who we are, 
whether we are loved.

1085
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,306
Are we going to get rejected? There 
are very deep things, in quotes,

1086
00:44:20,306 --> 00:44:22,854
that are there, that are present. 
It requires a true act of

1087
00:44:22,854 --> 00:44:26,440
vulnerability. And so I think that 
doesn't add lightness,

1088
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,156
but rather heaviness to how we 
perceive it.

1089
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,271
And so, I feel like it's almost 
expected that we might

1090
00:44:32,271 --> 00:44:34,925
procrastinate on sexuality, 
or on intimacy,

1091
00:44:34,925 --> 00:44:36,880
or on any intimate topic, 
really.

1092
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,200
And so I want to bring some 
compassion to that.

1093
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,527
And to tell yourself, 
"Okay, actually," to become aware

1094
00:44:42,527 --> 00:44:44,965
of that, to tell yourself, 
"Okay, it's actually normal, I now

1095
00:44:44,965 --> 00:44:47,450
understand why I'm procrastinating, 
because once again, the

1096
00:44:47,450 --> 00:44:50,092
conversation is easy. Why can't I 
do something easy? Okay,

1097
00:44:50,092 --> 00:44:52,415
maybe now I understand." And to ask 
yourself,

1098
00:44:52,415 --> 00:44:53,520
"So what do I need, 
then?".

1099
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,268
Because that helps, 
and I'd almost like to suggest an

1100
00:44:56,268 --> 00:44:59,452
experiment for our listeners who 
are tuning in and thinking,

1101
00:44:59,452 --> 00:45:02,763
"Well, I want to talk about 
intimacy," but taking it gradually,

1102
00:45:02,763 --> 00:45:04,948
step by step, along a path that 
feels safe.

1103
00:45:04,990 --> 00:45:07,650
And so what would it look like for 
this mountain of,

1104
00:45:07,650 --> 00:45:11,387
say, talking about—I don't know—how 
often we have sex or consent in our

1105
00:45:11,387 --> 00:45:13,793
relationship, this mountain that 
scares us?

1106
00:45:13,793 --> 00:45:16,391
Well, the first thing would be, 
if I take the very,

1107
00:45:16,391 --> 00:45:17,590
very, very first step.

1108
00:45:17,630 --> 00:45:19,267
In fact, I invite everyone to try 
it:

1109
00:45:19,267 --> 00:45:21,230
what would be the very first action 
to take?

1110
00:45:21,270 --> 00:45:23,659
Usually, to help, 
we say, "The first action that

1111
00:45:23,659 --> 00:45:26,227
takes 30 seconds, 
the first physical action you're

1112
00:45:26,227 --> 00:45:29,572
going to take if you want to talk 
about intimacy with your partner,"

1113
00:45:29,572 --> 00:45:32,616
well, usually the first action will 
be to go up to that person,

1114
00:45:32,616 --> 00:45:35,065
perhaps connect with them, 
meaning eye contact.

1115
00:45:35,110 --> 00:45:38,482
It could be, okay, 
first I'll just ask them how their

1116
00:45:38,482 --> 00:45:41,250
day went. We know that's easy, 
but believe it or not,

1117
00:45:41,250 --> 00:45:44,430
it will lower the threat level and 
increase feelings of safety.

1118
00:45:44,470 --> 00:45:46,223
Because if I ask them how their day 
went,

1119
00:45:46,223 --> 00:45:49,199
and they're angry—whether it's 
resentment from yesterday toward

1120
00:45:49,199 --> 00:45:50,741
us, or just road rage from traffic,

1121
00:45:50,741 --> 00:45:53,770
whatever it is—that's already a 
warning sign that they're actually

1122
00:45:53,770 --> 00:45:54,990
not in the right headspace.

1123
00:45:55,030 --> 00:45:57,044
So, we're not going to go there, 
and we're going to procrastinate,

1124
00:45:57,044 --> 00:45:59,485
and that's totally fine in that 
case. Step two, let's imagine the

1125
00:45:59,485 --> 00:46:01,245
person says, "Oh, 
great, really good,

1126
00:46:01,245 --> 00:46:03,386
and you?". Then maybe we'll 
connect,

1127
00:46:03,386 --> 00:46:07,109
want to hug, do something that 
builds a bond and makes you feel

1128
00:46:07,109 --> 00:46:08,496
safe with that person.

1129
00:46:08,540 --> 00:46:11,128
And then what would come next? It 
would be, "Do you have some time

1130
00:46:11,128 --> 00:46:13,492
for us to talk?". That doesn't mean 
we're putting ourselves on the

1131
00:46:13,492 --> 00:46:15,220
line; maybe we won't even talk, 
maybe the person will say, "Yes."

1132
00:46:15,260 --> 00:46:17,679
We say, "Okay, let's talk about it 
tomorrow," and there we go, we've

1133
00:46:17,679 --> 00:46:19,927
procrastinated, it's fine, 
we still haven't put ourselves on

1134
00:46:19,927 --> 00:46:21,959
the line, and so we move forward 
because each time we have

1135
00:46:21,959 --> 00:46:24,777
safeguards and we aren't taking too 
much of a risk. And so then, let's

1136
00:46:24,777 --> 00:46:28,286
say the person says "Yes," well, 
at that point we feel up to saying,

1137
00:46:28,286 --> 00:46:29,940
"Well, can we talk about it now?

1138
00:46:30,060 --> 00:46:32,131
Do you have half an hour for me, 
for us?",

1139
00:46:32,131 --> 00:46:34,516
and then saying, 
"Well, I'd like to talk to you

1140
00:46:34,516 --> 00:46:37,089
about something, 
but it's hard, it's not easy for

1141
00:46:37,089 --> 00:46:39,723
me." And in fact, 
we tend to think the person is

1142
00:46:39,723 --> 00:46:43,122
going to reject us or judge us, 
but the more I feel we anticipate

1143
00:46:43,122 --> 00:46:46,259
things and verbalize them, 
the more it disarms barriers.

1144
00:46:46,300 --> 00:46:48,653
And actually, if you clearly tell 
the person, "It's hard for me to

1145
00:46:48,653 --> 00:46:50,484
talk about this, 
and I think it's important for our

1146
00:46:50,484 --> 00:46:53,053
relationship," usually the person 
will empathize and say, "Okay, but

1147
00:46:53,053 --> 00:46:55,747
don't worry, what are you worried 
about?"... And instead of being on

1148
00:46:55,747 --> 00:46:58,710
the defensive, they will actually 
position themselves as an ally.

1149
00:46:58,750 --> 00:47:00,700
It really sets the stage to start 
opening up;

1150
00:47:00,700 --> 00:47:03,229
I just wanted to describe it a bit 
so people can picture it.

1151
00:47:03,229 --> 00:47:03,750
Yeah, I love it.

1152
00:47:03,750 --> 00:47:04,550
I can't wait to hear your...

1153
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:07,080
I love it because that is precisely 
one of the basic elements of

1154
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,658
procrastination in sexology—it is 
not the act or making love or

1155
00:47:09,658 --> 00:47:12,333
whatever, it is the outcome of a 
relationship, of intimacy, so you

1156
00:47:12,333 --> 00:47:14,923
have to communicate and talk. And 
we can procrastinate because we

1157
00:47:14,923 --> 00:47:16,922
say, "We're not ready, 
it's not the right time, and all

1158
00:47:16,922 --> 00:47:18,903
that." But behind this surface of 
excuses,

1159
00:47:18,903 --> 00:47:21,190
there are also hidden costs and 
hidden benefits.

1160
00:47:21,190 --> 00:47:23,019
And when we come back to it, 
as you say,

1161
00:47:23,019 --> 00:47:24,789
we need a simple and safe 
framework.

1162
00:47:24,830 --> 00:47:26,710
How am I going to handle the 
discussion?

1163
00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:29,943
A simple, accessible small step 
also comes to mind as I listen to

1164
00:47:29,943 --> 00:47:31,830
you: giving each other simple 
roles.

1165
00:47:31,830 --> 00:47:34,402
Because: how am I going to manage 
the discussion depending on the

1166
00:47:34,402 --> 00:47:36,568
response, which is unpredictable? 
And to think,

1167
00:47:36,568 --> 00:47:39,677
we could say, "Do you have time for 
me to listen to you on this

1168
00:47:39,677 --> 00:47:42,166
question?" And there the role is 
simple: "You express yourself, I

1169
00:47:42,166 --> 00:47:44,590
listen to you, and I won't do 
anything else." And it's simple and

1170
00:47:44,590 --> 00:47:47,650
safe, and then it allows me to 
manage the discussion because,

1171
00:47:47,650 --> 00:47:50,290
sometimes when we talk, 
we wear several hats and we no

1172
00:47:50,290 --> 00:47:52,090
longer know if we're the confidant,

1173
00:47:52,090 --> 00:47:54,070
the partner, the therapist, 
the judge,

1174
00:47:54,070 --> 00:47:56,411
the scorekeeper, 
the one bringing up the past,

1175
00:47:56,411 --> 00:47:58,818
you know? Roles are sometimes 
complex and,

1176
00:47:58,818 --> 00:48:02,101
like you say, "Do you have time for 
us to talk about it?" and I

1177
00:48:02,101 --> 00:48:05,654
suggest, "Do you have time for me 
to listen to you on this topic?"

1178
00:48:05,940 --> 00:48:07,490
And maybe that's for tomorrow, 
but,

1179
00:48:07,490 --> 00:48:10,072
yeah, thank you for all this 
insightful and powerful advice

1180
00:48:10,072 --> 00:48:11,620
(Johan Schuiten: 
You're welcome).

1181
00:48:11,660 --> 00:48:12,872
By the way, I was wondering: 
is that something you'd be

1182
00:48:12,872 --> 00:48:15,436
interested in? I don't know if 
you've ever had clients come to you

1183
00:48:15,436 --> 00:48:17,058
for procrastination and intimacy.

1184
00:48:17,100 --> 00:48:19,681
There might be people who will say, 
"Oh, I want to reach out to Johan,

1185
00:48:19,681 --> 00:48:22,262
I don't want a psycho-sexology 
consultation or whatever, but wow,

1186
00:48:22,262 --> 00:48:24,520
Johan, can you help me with my 
intimacy procrastination?"

1187
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:25,534
How do you feel about that?

1188
00:48:25,580 --> 00:48:28,156
Well, I've had both separately, 
meaning people have come to talk to

1189
00:48:28,156 --> 00:48:30,455
me about procrastination, 
and people have come to talk to me

1190
00:48:30,455 --> 00:48:32,663
about their sexuality, 
but I've never had both together,

1191
00:48:32,663 --> 00:48:34,931
and I'd be delighted, 
so don't hesitate. Yes, exactly,

1192
00:48:34,931 --> 00:48:37,058
and plus right now, 
this September I'm taking

1193
00:48:37,058 --> 00:48:39,184
consultations, a 1-hour free 
consultation,

1194
00:48:39,184 --> 00:48:40,860
so go for it if the topic touches 
you.

1195
00:48:40,900 --> 00:48:43,738
We will put the contact details in 
the podcast article.

1196
00:48:43,780 --> 00:48:44,940
Fanny, do you have a question?

1197
00:48:44,980 --> 00:48:48,260
I feel nurtured by all these shared 
experiences.

1198
00:48:48,260 --> 00:48:51,580
I don't know how you feel, 
and the listeners as well.

1199
00:48:51,580 --> 00:48:55,855
But yeah, I'm coming away with a 
lot of reflection,

1200
00:48:55,855 --> 00:49:00,029
both from oneself to oneself and 
also reflection

1201
00:49:00,029 --> 00:49:01,047
for others.

1202
00:49:01,570 --> 00:49:04,561
I also feel something like, 
wow, really well-fed,

1203
00:49:04,561 --> 00:49:06,620
you know. Personally, 
I say, "Wow,

1204
00:49:06,620 --> 00:49:08,732
that was good. The menu: 
starter, main course,

1205
00:49:08,732 --> 00:49:11,269
dessert, dessert, 
dessert, dessert" - Laughs. I love

1206
00:49:11,269 --> 00:49:13,865
that; sometimes at a restaurant, 
I have three desserts. People tell

1207
00:49:13,865 --> 00:49:15,195
me, "Another one?", 
"Yes, yes, I want three desserts,

1208
00:49:15,195 --> 00:49:17,605
you know?". And I feel a bit like 
that,

1209
00:49:17,605 --> 00:49:20,410
saying, "Oh, I treated myself, 
and I feel a lot of gratitude."

1210
00:49:20,410 --> 00:49:24,439
Thank you for sharing so much, 
for slowing down to unpack this

1211
00:49:24,439 --> 00:49:28,073
topic which, you see, 
it's just one word and it felt good

1212
00:49:28,073 --> 00:49:30,443
to unpack it with you, 
with your..."

1213
00:49:30,490 --> 00:49:33,008
On my end, I might have a quick 
question. I'd be curious to know

1214
00:49:33,008 --> 00:49:35,609
what concrete examples of 
procrastination—maybe this will

1215
00:49:35,609 --> 00:49:38,567
interest our listeners—you've 
encountered in your consultations,

1216
00:49:38,567 --> 00:49:40,352
so that people can relate and maybe 
think,

1217
00:49:40,352 --> 00:49:42,494
"Oh yeah, it's true, 
I'm procrastinating on that,

1218
00:49:42,494 --> 00:49:45,248
it's actually an issue for me too, 
and I hadn't thought about it."

1219
00:49:45,290 --> 00:49:48,944
As Olivier was saying earlier, 
I would first say procrastinating

1220
00:49:48,944 --> 00:49:51,403
on making an appointment to see a 
therapist,

1221
00:49:51,403 --> 00:49:52,532
first and foremost.

1222
00:49:52,532 --> 00:49:54,724
And I mentioned it a little earlier 
too,

1223
00:49:54,724 --> 00:49:57,513
there was a patient who really 
moved me and told me,

1224
00:49:57,513 --> 00:50:00,106
"I don't have time to make love 
with my partner,

1225
00:50:00,106 --> 00:50:03,362
it causes me a lot of distress 
because I would really love to

1226
00:50:03,362 --> 00:50:05,023
share those moments with him.

1227
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,232
Before, we used to do it a lot, 
we enjoyed it,

1228
00:50:08,232 --> 00:50:11,969
and nowadays, time—time is too 
tight." I would say that,

1229
00:50:11,969 --> 00:50:15,187
"Yes, sometimes you have to put it 
in your schedule." Olivier was

1230
00:50:15,187 --> 00:50:17,978
talking about spontaneity, 
and that's what's so great about

1231
00:50:17,978 --> 00:50:20,605
sexuality, but sometimes it's also 
great to schedule it,

1232
00:50:20,605 --> 00:50:22,409
I think, and to say to each other, 
"Okay,

1233
00:50:22,409 --> 00:50:25,036
what would you feel like?", 
or even build a script without

1234
00:50:25,036 --> 00:50:26,513
locking yourselves in, 
but..."

1235
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:28,537
We were talking about an anti-to-do 
list,

1236
00:50:28,537 --> 00:50:31,137
and I could clearly see an 
anti-script—meaning you plan

1237
00:50:31,137 --> 00:50:33,019
scripts, and then at the end you 
analyze:

1238
00:50:33,019 --> 00:50:36,007
what script would it be if I had 
filmed what I did between waking up

1239
00:50:36,007 --> 00:50:37,998
this morning and when I listened to 
myself?

1240
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:39,683
Regarding the topic I'm interested 
in,

1241
00:50:39,683 --> 00:50:41,524
what steps did I take? You know, 
you say, "I'm going to do this,

1242
00:50:41,524 --> 00:50:43,781
this, and this." And then..." with 
emotion, spontaneity, sometimes we

1243
00:50:43,781 --> 00:50:46,480
go off on something completely 
different, and... Look at the

1244
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:47,760
anti-script.

1245
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:50,825
Yeah, yeah. That could be fun, 
yeah, that's interesting too. What

1246
00:50:50,825 --> 00:50:53,569
you're saying, Fanny, 
makes me think of something:

1247
00:50:53,569 --> 00:50:56,375
putting it in the calendar 
definitely takes away the

1248
00:50:56,375 --> 00:50:59,435
spontaneity of planning, 
but that doesn't mean the whole

1249
00:50:59,435 --> 00:51:01,730
session won't have plenty of 
spontaneity.

1250
00:51:01,770 --> 00:51:03,493
So, I think planning is just one 
aspect,

1251
00:51:03,493 --> 00:51:05,426
and not the most important one in 
my opinion,

1252
00:51:05,426 --> 00:51:06,782
so I don't want us to nip it in the

1253
00:51:06,782 --> 00:51:07,930
bud too quickly, you know.

1254
00:51:07,970 --> 00:51:10,404
Yeah, totally. Maybe I didn't 
explain myself well,

1255
00:51:10,404 --> 00:51:12,841
but it's not a to-do list; 
it's really about giving ourselves

1256
00:51:12,841 --> 00:51:14,832
that time together. And if there's 
no sex,

1257
00:51:14,832 --> 00:51:17,558
that's fine, it's not about the 
pressure of saying,

1258
00:51:17,558 --> 00:51:20,095
"Okay, Tuesday evening at 6:00 PM 
is our moment,

1259
00:51:20,095 --> 00:51:23,605
we can't miss it because otherwise 
we won't have time." Not at all;

1260
00:51:23,605 --> 00:51:26,994
it's really, "What if we treated 
ourselves to time together?" And

1261
00:51:26,994 --> 00:51:29,029
that could even just be going for a 
walk,

1262
00:51:29,029 --> 00:51:31,247
walking around town, 
getting an ice cream,

1263
00:51:31,247 --> 00:51:34,021
going to the movies, 
and just granting ourselves some

1264
00:51:34,021 --> 00:51:37,154
time. And to me, 
what can prevent procrastination

1265
00:51:37,154 --> 00:51:39,673
when it comes to sex, 
and even intimacy,

1266
00:51:39,673 --> 00:51:42,650
is granting ourselves moments of 
connection.

1267
00:51:42,650 --> 00:51:43,650
Quite simply.

1268
00:51:44,450 --> 00:51:46,289
It sounds easy like that, 
but... [laughter]

1269
00:51:46,930 --> 00:51:50,065
What you're saying is very true 
about actually looking forward to

1270
00:51:50,065 --> 00:51:52,687
having that moment; 
just because we planned it doesn't

1271
00:51:52,687 --> 00:51:54,511
mean we can't, well, 
cancel it either,

1272
00:51:54,511 --> 00:51:55,993
but at least we made room for it.

1273
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,435
Because that's the most important 
thing for me:

1274
00:51:58,435 --> 00:52:01,184
indeed, it's not about following a 
schedule and being robots,

1275
00:52:01,184 --> 00:52:03,560
but rather making room that is 
important in planning.

1276
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,226
And so, that really resonates with 
me. The second thing is that it's

1277
00:52:06,226 --> 00:52:08,619
quite a well-known thing, 
a bit like something from a

1278
00:52:08,619 --> 00:52:10,958
psychology magazine, 
to think, "We'll put it on the

1279
00:52:10,958 --> 00:52:14,060
calendar, and therefore it exists," 
but there's a way to make it much

1280
00:52:14,060 --> 00:52:17,160
more complete and more powerful, 
which is actually to build on that.

1281
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,194
So, that's the "when," saying, 
"Okay,

1282
00:52:19,194 --> 00:52:21,376
Tuesday night is our connection 
evening,

1283
00:52:21,376 --> 00:52:24,370
and we're really going to connect; 
maybe there'll be sex,

1284
00:52:24,370 --> 00:52:26,800
maybe not"—I like leaving that 
question mark.

1285
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:28,659
And so there we know it's the 
"when";

1286
00:52:28,659 --> 00:52:30,642
for instance, we say, 
"It's at 8:00 PM,

1287
00:52:30,642 --> 00:52:32,640
we connect." Then there's also the 
"where"?

1288
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:34,635
Sometimes setting the "where" can 
help,

1289
00:52:34,635 --> 00:52:37,594
meaning, "Okay, at 8:00 PM we meet 
in the bedroom." And so the fact of

1290
00:52:37,594 --> 00:52:39,691
being in the bedroom together, 
or somewhere else, right? On the

1291
00:52:39,691 --> 00:52:41,435
roof of the house, 
I don't know. But that's going to

1292
00:52:41,435 --> 00:52:43,983
remind us that it's the moment to 
connect, and the person isn't like,

1293
00:52:43,983 --> 00:52:46,577
"Oh, but she just wanted to start a 
load of laundry," or he's scrolling

1294
00:52:46,577 --> 00:52:49,019
so he's not available. So there is 
the location, so the brain

1295
00:52:49,019 --> 00:52:51,527
visualizes too, because the moment 
they enter the bedroom and it's

1296
00:52:51,527 --> 00:52:54,115
8:00 PM, it knows what it needs to 
do. The third is the "how"—what are

1297
00:52:54,115 --> 00:52:55,753
we going to do? Maybe we'll cuddle,

1298
00:52:55,753 --> 00:52:58,030
maybe we'll start with that, 
we'll have a glass of wine.

1299
00:52:58,070 --> 00:53:01,053
Whatever we feel like adding, 
we might have lit candles,

1300
00:53:01,053 --> 00:53:04,309
but it works. And the icing on the 
cake is visualization.

1301
00:53:04,350 --> 00:53:08,308
So for example, a few days before, 
we close our eyes and we visualize.

1302
00:53:08,350 --> 00:53:11,016
Okay, it's Tuesday, 
I get home from work,

1303
00:53:11,016 --> 00:53:13,055
I go, we ate, we go up on the roof,

1304
00:53:13,055 --> 00:53:15,642
we look at the stars, 
we put out candles,

1305
00:53:15,642 --> 00:53:18,229
there's that smell of cut grass, 
and...

1306
00:53:18,350 --> 00:53:21,309
Then we'll start cuddling, 
kissing.

1307
00:53:21,350 --> 00:53:23,933
And actually, by visualizing all of 
that,

1308
00:53:23,933 --> 00:53:26,590
our brain thinks it's real, 
that it exists.

1309
00:53:26,710 --> 00:53:30,329
So procrastination normally isn't 
there anymore because we've done

1310
00:53:30,329 --> 00:53:33,011
it, and on top of that, 
it realizes that it goes well,

1311
00:53:33,011 --> 00:53:35,006
so it's reassuring, 
it's super clear,

1312
00:53:35,006 --> 00:53:36,190
it's super appealing.

1313
00:53:36,230 --> 00:53:38,713
So actually, that's a pretty 
powerful effect;

1314
00:53:38,713 --> 00:53:41,069
it's Fabien Olicard who shares it 
in a video.

1315
00:53:41,470 --> 00:53:43,017
Yeah (Olivier Mageren: 
Thank you). You just described

1316
00:53:43,017 --> 00:53:46,775
perfectly what I meant; 
scheduling a connection session,

1317
00:53:46,775 --> 00:53:49,380
let's say, really feeds into 
something.

1318
00:53:49,420 --> 00:53:51,908
It's like when you have something 
planned during the week,

1319
00:53:51,908 --> 00:53:53,431
something a bit out of the 
ordinary,

1320
00:53:53,431 --> 00:53:55,921
you're going to see a friend you 
haven't seen in a long time,

1321
00:53:55,921 --> 00:53:57,649
and you're in a state of excitement 
like,

1322
00:53:57,649 --> 00:53:58,818
"Okay, it's coming up soon.

1323
00:53:58,820 --> 00:54:01,581
So great, can't wait!". And that's 
kind of the same effect I try to

1324
00:54:01,581 --> 00:54:03,900
offer them, and it's also a 
reassuring framework.

1325
00:54:03,940 --> 00:54:06,645
You think, "Okay, 
well, we—for a couple of two,

1326
00:54:06,645 --> 00:54:09,631
at least—we've both planned to set 
aside this time,

1327
00:54:09,631 --> 00:54:11,921
and it leaves room for the 
imagination,

1328
00:54:11,921 --> 00:54:13,379
as you explained so well.

1329
00:54:13,940 --> 00:54:16,644
What comes to mind for me listening 
to your question is that the

1330
00:54:16,644 --> 00:54:19,140
reasons are numerous, 
but I often thank people for taking

1331
00:54:19,140 --> 00:54:21,512
care of themselves. They are the 
only ones who can take care of

1332
00:54:21,512 --> 00:54:24,124
themselves. And why this topic 
rather than another,

1333
00:54:24,124 --> 00:54:26,420
to tell you, "Oh yeah, 
what comes to mind?".

1334
00:54:26,460 --> 00:54:29,124
Because we can procrastinate on 
1000 topics—loving one's body,

1335
00:54:29,124 --> 00:54:31,541
understanding sexuality, 
discovering the other person,

1336
00:54:31,541 --> 00:54:34,155
communicating better—well, 
it's vast, it's kind of Pandora's

1337
00:54:34,155 --> 00:54:36,412
box, really. And I tell myself, 
"Well actually,

1338
00:54:36,412 --> 00:54:38,372
what we can do here and now is what 
is ripe,

1339
00:54:38,372 --> 00:54:41,599
what is ready; the rest is perhaps 
premature or irrelevant or out of

1340
00:54:41,599 --> 00:54:44,303
context. So it's not me who knows 
better than the person." So yes, we

1341
00:54:44,303 --> 00:54:46,468
could talk for 1000 years, 
I'd gladly do ten years of

1342
00:54:46,468 --> 00:54:48,079
consultations, I love that, 
you know,

1343
00:54:48,079 --> 00:54:49,490
but it is so genuine and intimate.

1344
00:54:49,490 --> 00:54:51,301
But I don't know what is good for 
the person,

1345
00:54:51,301 --> 00:54:53,565
and when they decide, 
"this is what I want to talk about

1346
00:54:53,565 --> 00:54:55,930
today," that's what's ripe, 
that's what's accessible.

1347
00:54:55,970 --> 00:54:57,587
And then show people that it's 
simple,

1348
00:54:57,587 --> 00:54:59,610
that there are resources, 
that it's self-love.

1349
00:54:59,650 --> 00:55:01,810
Ultimately, if we take care of 
ourselves, we take care of society

1350
00:55:01,810 --> 00:55:04,402
too. And then sometimes we wait for 
others to take care of us,

1351
00:55:04,402 --> 00:55:06,170
but in fact we are the best placed 
to know.

1352
00:55:06,210 --> 00:55:08,030
And it's okay to tell yourself, 
"Well yeah,

1353
00:55:08,030 --> 00:55:09,750
I took some time until the moment I 
say no,

1354
00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:12,178
I'm stopping doing it this way," 
because as long as I do it,

1355
00:55:12,178 --> 00:55:13,999
I have hidden benefits, 
and all the better,

1356
00:55:13,999 --> 00:55:16,729
those nutrients might be more 
important than making the change.

1357
00:55:16,770 --> 00:55:18,528
But at some point, 
when I tell myself,

1358
00:55:18,528 --> 00:55:21,024
"No, I don't want to repeat the 
same pattern anymore,

1359
00:55:21,024 --> 00:55:23,235
I'm fed up with procrastinating," 
then "okay,

1360
00:55:23,235 --> 00:55:25,956
I get moving," and no matter the 
little detail afterward,

1361
00:55:25,956 --> 00:55:28,905
actually, it shows that we have an 
example of what's possible,

1362
00:55:28,905 --> 00:55:31,855
where maybe the first time it was 
body image and the second time

1363
00:55:31,855 --> 00:55:35,090
something else, or the first time I 
talk about contraception and the

1364
00:55:35,090 --> 00:55:38,211
next time I say maybe I actually 
want to talk about my relationship

1365
00:55:38,211 --> 00:55:40,252
with my partner. So there's really 
that aspect,

1366
00:55:40,252 --> 00:55:42,602
which I think is great. Just thank 
you for daring,

1367
00:55:42,602 --> 00:55:44,359
and for taking care of yourself.

1368
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,587
And yes, often we procrastinated 
beforehand,

1369
00:55:46,587 --> 00:55:48,760
but that's healthy, 
and maybe we can also learn to

1370
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:50,562
procrastinate less because 
sometimes,

1371
00:55:50,562 --> 00:55:52,576
when it's never a priority, I feel 
like we hurt

1372
00:55:52,576 --> 00:55:53,636
ourselves needlessly.

1373
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,046
Yeah. This unnecessary pain is 
really what triggers a reaction in

1374
00:55:57,046 --> 00:55:59,780
me, and I'd like to say to any 
listeners who are wondering,

1375
00:55:59,780 --> 00:56:01,659
"Wait, am I procrastinating right 
now,

1376
00:56:01,659 --> 00:56:05,092
or am I putting it off because I'm 
not ready?" My invitation would be:

1377
00:56:05,092 --> 00:56:08,326
try to see, to take just one step, 
without forcing yourself,

1378
00:56:08,326 --> 00:56:10,524
and see if that step leads you to 
another,

1379
00:56:10,524 --> 00:56:13,951
and whether, step after step, 
they feel relatively easy and you

1380
00:56:13,951 --> 00:56:15,760
aren't forcing yourself to do it.

1381
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:17,463
You just want to, 
and it might not always be easy,

1382
00:56:17,463 --> 00:56:19,932
but you genuinely want to. I think 
it probably means you're on the

1383
00:56:19,932 --> 00:56:22,661
right track, one that respects who 
you are, and I'd say nature is well

1384
00:56:22,661 --> 00:56:25,430
made and you will stop if it's too 
early. And conversely,

1385
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:28,225
if you're ready or become ready 
along the way,

1386
00:56:28,225 --> 00:56:29,400
you'll keep going.

1387
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,050
If that works for you, 
I suggest we wrap up the podcast

1388
00:56:32,050 --> 00:56:34,720
and start with gratitudes, 
and I'll let you share one.

1389
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:37,673
When you talked about studying, 
and I told you I love your approach

1390
00:56:37,673 --> 00:56:40,034
of saying, "Okay, 
I procrastinated on studying this

1391
00:56:40,034 --> 00:56:43,090
and that, but actually I was trying 
to fit into a mold that wasn't me."

1392
00:56:43,130 --> 00:56:46,106
And when you have such a human 
approach and you have tools,

1393
00:56:46,106 --> 00:56:48,834
methods, passion, 
advice, you really feel that it's

1394
00:56:48,834 --> 00:56:51,929
genuinely human. How to actually be 
effective for yourself?

1395
00:56:51,970 --> 00:56:55,518
How to know yourself better so that 
you find your own way to take

1396
00:56:55,518 --> 00:56:57,290
action and find joy in doing so?

1397
00:56:57,290 --> 00:56:59,649
And I really like that curious 
attitude toward people.

1398
00:56:59,690 --> 00:57:01,502
Meaning be yourself because, 
well,

1399
00:57:01,502 --> 00:57:04,825
the example of studying really 
resonates with me and I recognized

1400
00:57:04,825 --> 00:57:07,251
myself in it. I used to study from 
11:00 p.m.

1401
00:57:07,251 --> 00:57:10,157
to 3:00 a.m. because during the day 
I wanted to move around,

1402
00:57:10,157 --> 00:57:12,244
do sports. And yet I succeeded in 
my studies,

1403
00:57:12,244 --> 00:57:13,648
but I worked at night, 
you know.

1404
00:57:14,050 --> 00:57:16,440
So I want to say thank you for 
sharing this way of supporting

1405
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:17,610
people with such curiosity.

1406
00:57:17,650 --> 00:57:20,234
Awesome! Thank you both, 
because without you,

1407
00:57:20,234 --> 00:57:21,951
without these discussions we've 
had,

1408
00:57:21,951 --> 00:57:24,044
I wouldn't be here talking about 
this subject,

1409
00:57:24,044 --> 00:57:27,156
and, well, I think intimacy and our 
inner life are too important not to

1410
00:57:27,156 --> 00:57:29,415
talk about. So here, 
I'm delighted to have been able to

1411
00:57:29,415 --> 00:57:32,111
immerse myself in this a bit and 
share my perspective, and, yeah, it

1412
00:57:32,111 --> 00:57:34,807
wasn't obvious to me that someone 
could procrastinate in their sex

1413
00:57:34,807 --> 00:57:37,753
life. And I think it really is 
fertile ground for that,

1414
00:57:37,753 --> 00:57:40,216
so all the better if I was able to 
help people,

1415
00:57:40,216 --> 00:57:42,740
and it will be thanks to you, 
so thank you both.

1416
00:57:42,740 --> 00:57:43,300
Thank you.

1417
00:57:43,300 --> 00:57:45,680
Thank you both for opening up this 
topic,

1418
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,617
because sexology is something I'm 
familiar with,

1419
00:57:48,617 --> 00:57:52,604
but it's true that procrastination 
isn't necessarily a question we

1420
00:57:52,604 --> 00:57:53,860
would ask ourselves.

1421
00:57:53,900 --> 00:57:57,032
Everything you shared, 
Johan, about your experience with

1422
00:57:57,032 --> 00:57:59,140
procrastination was truly 
enriching.

1423
00:57:59,500 --> 00:58:01,973
I just had a flash of inspiration: 
next Thursday, the discussion

1424
00:58:01,973 --> 00:58:04,356
circle will be "Sexuality, 
procrastination" (Fanny Galodé:

1425
00:58:04,356 --> 00:58:06,578
Let's do it). Just listening to 
people,

1426
00:58:06,578 --> 00:58:08,100
you know, without interpreting.

1427
00:58:08,140 --> 00:58:10,971
Everyone on a topic, 
and listening—if there are 20

1428
00:58:10,971 --> 00:58:12,859
people in the room, 
what comes up?

1429
00:58:13,060 --> 00:58:17,540
I'd really love that - 
Laughs. Thank you both.

1430
00:58:17,540 --> 00:58:18,140
Thank you

1431
00:58:18,140 --> 00:58:18,940
thank you

1432
00:58:18,940 --> 00:58:19,620
See you soon.

1433
00:58:19,620 --> 00:58:20,620
Entr'nous.

1434
00:58:24,540 --> 00:58:28,438
Entr'Nous, the podcast, 
to talk, about

1435
00:58:28,438 --> 00:58:29,619
sexuality.

1436
00:58:33,860 --> 00:58:38,297
By you, with you, 
for

1437
00:58:38,297 --> 00:58:39,340
you.