1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,540 Michel: Welcome to another episode of "Paroles d'Écopreneur". 2 00:00:02,570 --> 00:00:05,540 Candice Enderlé: Inspiring stories of people who do things differently. 3 00:00:05,570 --> 00:00:09,430 Michel: And it's a "KAYA" podcast, by Midoricast, supported by the "National 4 00:00:09,430 --> 00:00:13,410 Lottery". Hello everyone, my colleague Candice Enerlé is on the 5 00:00:13,410 --> 00:00:15,590 microphone today, hello Candice. 6 00:00:15,620 --> 00:00:16,670 Candice Enderlé: Hello Michel. 7 00:00:16,700 --> 00:00:19,430 Michel: And our guest is Thomas Wansart. 8 00:00:19,430 --> 00:00:22,190 So Thomas, let's start with a short introduction. 9 00:00:22,190 --> 00:00:23,570 Who are you in a few words? 10 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,410 Thomas Wansart: My name is Thomas, I'm 38 years old, I'm originally from Waimes, 11 00:00:26,410 --> 00:00:29,470 a small village in Wallonia, and I've been living in Brussels for a few 12 00:00:29,470 --> 00:00:33,450 years now. And a year and a half ago, I founded "Néo & Néa". 13 00:00:33,470 --> 00:00:37,950 Before that, I had founded other projects, both on North-South inequality issues, 14 00:00:37,950 --> 00:00:40,910 but also on climate issues, very much energy-climate, 15 00:00:40,910 --> 00:00:42,170 for five-ten years now. 16 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,890 Michel: So he was involved in a lot of things very early on, 17 00:00:44,890 --> 00:00:45,320 I think. 18 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:49,180 Thomas Wansart: Yes, I started entrepreneurship quite early, when we were already small. 19 00:00:49,190 --> 00:00:53,290 My mates and I were in our early twenties, we'd bought unicycles and our aim was to rent 20 00:00:53,290 --> 00:00:54,770 them out and earn a bit of money. 21 00:00:54,770 --> 00:00:58,470 Except the problem is that unicycles are very complicated to handle, so renting something 22 00:00:58,470 --> 00:01:01,470 that people don't know how to use isn't a good plan. 25 years ago, 23 00:01:01,470 --> 00:01:06,870 I co-founded "Ecos", a small NGO that finances schools in Burkina Faso. 24 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:09,850 So we've built schools for around 500 pupils, 25 00:01:09,850 --> 00:01:14,910 dormitories exclusively for girls, and scholarships for vulnerable girls. 26 00:01:14,910 --> 00:01:17,170 So we've been doing this for ten years now, and the project is still going. It's a 27 00:01:17,170 --> 00:01:18,400 project I'm running alongside "Néo & Néa". 28 00:01:18,510 --> 00:01:20,090 Candice Enderlé: What kind of training do you have? 29 00:01:20,130 --> 00:01:22,290 Thomas Wansart: My background is in management science. 30 00:01:22,320 --> 00:01:25,860 Michel: There's nothing better than a manager to make projects with a positive impact, 31 00:01:25,860 --> 00:01:29,390 and you can feel it, you can hear it, there's already a story behind it before you 32 00:01:29,390 --> 00:01:32,840 even start. So Thomas, today we're going to talk about your business 33 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,460 with "Neo & Néa", and I'd like to ask you: what sector are you active in, 34 00:01:36,460 --> 00:01:39,030 so that listeners can understand a little better? 35 00:01:39,060 --> 00:01:43,480 Thomas Wansart: Exactly. In fact, "Neo & Nea" starts with raising awareness and moves on to 36 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,810 understanding, leading to action, around actions to preserve the climate, 37 00:01:47,810 --> 00:01:48,990 let's put it that way. 38 00:01:48,990 --> 00:01:51,440 And so this is really a rather special sector, 39 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,340 because it brings together training, the use of data, 40 00:01:54,340 --> 00:01:57,570 and all the behavioral sciences needed to activate people. 41 00:01:57,630 --> 00:02:00,910 And many measures, so it's more of a carbon footprint measure, 42 00:02:00,910 --> 00:02:03,680 so it's multi-sectoral but with a common objective: 43 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,230 to reduce our emissions, to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, 44 00:02:07,230 --> 00:02:09,330 and therefore our impact on the climate. 45 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,550 Michel: It's for B2C! 46 00:02:10,110 --> 00:02:15,960 Thomas Wansart: It's B2C. But in fact, the complexity is that for our lifestyles to 47 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,290 change, we need: both strong public policies that enable us to change, 48 00:02:20,290 --> 00:02:22,340 so we're more in the B 2 B business. 49 00:02:22,350 --> 00:02:25,580 We need products and services that are consistent with these changes, 50 00:02:25,580 --> 00:02:28,150 so we're in B2Me. And then we need to get people on board, 51 00:02:28,150 --> 00:02:30,830 who have to make these choices in the light of each other, 52 00:02:30,830 --> 00:02:32,380 and so we're in the B 2 C business. 53 00:02:32,430 --> 00:02:38,550 And that's the complexity of getting these three types of people to work together. 54 00:02:38,550 --> 00:02:39,450 Michel: Three types of profile, yes. 55 00:02:39,780 --> 00:02:44,190 Thomas Wansart: Profiles. To bring about change, because we're convinced that change comes not 56 00:02:44,190 --> 00:02:47,590 only from the people, but also from good public policy and good 57 00:02:47,590 --> 00:02:48,870 products and services. 58 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:50,610 Candice Enderlé: Yes, it's really ecosystemic, in fact. 59 00:02:50,640 --> 00:02:54,220 Thomas Wansart: Here we are. In the vision we've developed, we can't do without this systemic vision to 60 00:02:54,220 --> 00:02:56,470 achieve the change and ambition we've set ourselves. 61 00:02:56,550 --> 00:02:59,630 Michel: What made you decide to focus on this activity? 62 00:02:59,630 --> 00:03:02,130 Because you're already active in causes, so at some point there's a click that 63 00:03:02,130 --> 00:03:02,420 happens? 64 00:03:02,450 --> 00:03:05,030 Thomas Wansart: Oui. So I was active in causes, one of the reasons being to see the 65 00:03:05,030 --> 00:03:08,220 consequences of climate change, particularly in Burkina Faso, where they were 66 00:03:08,220 --> 00:03:10,790 directly affected (Michel: Oh yeah!) and particularly the most 67 00:03:10,790 --> 00:03:13,130 vulnerable populations. That was about ten years ago. 68 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,700 Michel: And it's easy to see why you're talking about it now, because there's a strong link! 69 00:03:15,740 --> 00:03:19,040 Thomas Wansart: Yes, there's a strong link with that. And then today, there's the flooding in Liège, 70 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,880 which could have been another trigger. Heat waves, when you're at home and it's very hot, 71 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:24,000 can be another trigger. 72 00:03:24,020 --> 00:03:26,500 In fact, I think we all have different triggers, 73 00:03:26,500 --> 00:03:28,450 and this was mine. And in fact, in the future, 74 00:03:28,450 --> 00:03:31,380 I think that more and more people will also have these triggers because of the 75 00:03:31,380 --> 00:03:33,580 consequences that will affect them in their daily lives. 76 00:03:33,620 --> 00:03:36,030 Michel: Can you explain a little concretely, I'm a citizen, 77 00:03:36,030 --> 00:03:36,800 what's going on? 78 00:03:36,830 --> 00:03:39,960 Thomas Wansart: Basically, we've developed an itinerary that we've co-constructed with various 79 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,780 organizations, so I'll give you an example. If we're working with a local authority, 80 00:03:43,780 --> 00:03:47,570 we're going to ask its residents to calculate their carbon footprint. 81 00:03:47,570 --> 00:03:51,930 This will give people a better understanding of their energy dependence. 82 00:03:51,950 --> 00:03:56,230 It will also give them the understanding to know what to do and what not to do in their 83 00:03:56,230 --> 00:03:58,610 daily lives. However, this change in behavior is going to be 84 00:03:58,610 --> 00:04:00,840 dependent. A whole series of things. If I'm a tenant, 85 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:02,840 I don't know how to insulate my house. 86 00:04:02,860 --> 00:04:06,000 If I want to ride my bike, but there are no safe cycle paths or my bike 87 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,430 is stolen, it's complicated. 88 00:04:07,450 --> 00:04:11,650 And so, in fact, we're going to work with the public authorities to be able to say "Ok, 89 00:04:11,650 --> 00:04:15,970 here we have a population of 1,000 people who have a total footprint of let's say 10,000 90 00:04:15,970 --> 00:04:18,490 tonnes of CO2, so our goal is to get to 9,000 tonnes. 91 00:04:18,550 --> 00:04:22,120 And the configuration of my population is as it is. 92 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,810 And so, for example, I would like to know the diet of my population". And so we'll be able 93 00:04:25,810 --> 00:04:30,130 to say "Well, couldn't we try to help these people eat a little more vegetable protein, 94 00:04:30,130 --> 00:04:34,150 for example", or people will say "Well, they do a lot of ten-kilometre journeys, 95 00:04:34,150 --> 00:04:35,410 but they use the car a lot. 96 00:04:35,410 --> 00:04:38,080 How do you switch? And that's where "Néo & Néa", 97 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,120 with its platform and tools, comes into its own, enabling other players to 98 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,220 join in, offering, for example, support in discovering cycling in the city 99 00:04:44,220 --> 00:04:46,900 (Michel: Yeah, that's it). So people are going to train people. 100 00:04:46,900 --> 00:04:49,950 Or a vegetarian cooking workshop, in which I introduce you to a vegetarian 101 00:04:49,950 --> 00:04:51,960 recipe that I'll replicate at home. And then, 102 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,870 depending on the target audience, there are different angles to take. 103 00:04:55,870 --> 00:04:57,840 When it comes to food, we can look at it from a health angle: people 104 00:04:57,840 --> 00:05:00,400 are going to change for the sake of health and not for the sake of the environment, and 105 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,530 that's fine. In other cases, it's saying "You're Italian, you love Italian 106 00:05:03,530 --> 00:05:05,910 food. Come on, let's do an Italian cooking workshop", 107 00:05:05,910 --> 00:05:08,190 and vegetarian recipes will be replicated at home, 108 00:05:08,190 --> 00:05:09,660 but they're actually vegetarian. 109 00:05:09,660 --> 00:05:13,700 And so we've developed measurement tools that we make available to a whole range of 110 00:05:13,700 --> 00:05:18,220 organizations to enable them to measure the effectiveness of their awareness campaigns in 111 00:05:18,220 --> 00:05:20,690 changing behavior, and also to reflect on values, 112 00:05:20,690 --> 00:05:24,150 because in fact behavior is really rooted in values (Candice Enderlé: 113 00:05:24,150 --> 00:05:27,440 Mm - Michel: Right). I can change a little thing on the surface, 114 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,410 but if I don't anchor it, I might change for six months, 115 00:05:30,410 --> 00:05:33,270 but not for a year, not for two years, not for ten years. 116 00:05:33,270 --> 00:05:36,770 If I discover a recipe that I love, I pass it on to my children, 117 00:05:36,770 --> 00:05:39,500 who will potentially replicate it once a week, 118 00:05:39,500 --> 00:05:42,330 once a month, for five years, ten years, 20 years. 119 00:05:42,330 --> 00:05:44,950 And so we're going to have a long-term impact and a fairly significant change. 120 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,300 Candice Enderlé: That's what lasting change is all about, because you're proposing a whole raft of 121 00:05:48,300 --> 00:05:50,280 measures that are also "tailor-made" after all. 122 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,820 Thomas Wansart: Here we are. So it's really very important. If we're doing a workshop for a commune, so 123 00:05:53,820 --> 00:05:56,640 in fact it's going to be a workshop, we're going to create card games, it's very 124 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,180 playful the way we bring it all together. We don't make people feel guilty at all, they 125 00:06:00,180 --> 00:06:02,470 play with cards and say, "Well, I want to do that, 126 00:06:02,470 --> 00:06:04,760 I'm capable of doing that, but I've got brakes". 127 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,460 So people can express their obstacles and frustrations, 128 00:06:07,460 --> 00:06:11,380 and all this information is of use to us, but also ultimately to the people who will be 129 00:06:11,380 --> 00:06:13,910 implementing public policies for their population. 130 00:06:13,910 --> 00:06:17,430 This allows them to get to know them better, so that it's adapted and personalized. So the 131 00:06:17,430 --> 00:06:19,810 card games we make are also personalized. 132 00:06:19,820 --> 00:06:23,780 In other words, saying "You have to take the train" to people who don't have a station 133 00:06:23,780 --> 00:06:26,710 nearby doesn't work. So the cards will say "If you live", 134 00:06:26,710 --> 00:06:29,870 for example, and I'll come back to an example I know well, 135 00:06:29,870 --> 00:06:31,280 namely Waimes-Malmedy. 136 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:33,740 "If you live in Malmedy and you go to work in Liège, 137 00:06:33,740 --> 00:06:36,860 well, if you switch from your private car to go to work in Liège, 138 00:06:36,860 --> 00:06:40,320 and you take your car to Verviers station, and then you take the train, 139 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,200 you're going to avoid just as much CO2". 140 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,860 And so our cards are personalized according to people's profiles (Michel: Wow). We always 141 00:06:45,860 --> 00:06:48,370 do this with companies, so it's a bit of the same logic, 142 00:06:48,370 --> 00:06:50,330 there are a lot of entrepreneurs and so on. 143 00:06:50,330 --> 00:06:53,390 The carbon footprint is a mapping of the company's emissions, 144 00:06:53,390 --> 00:06:55,710 and then we go and ask people what they want to do? 145 00:06:55,710 --> 00:06:57,620 What can they do? What's stopping them? 146 00:06:57,630 --> 00:06:59,690 Is it the market and the competition? 147 00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:01,600 Is it the cost of the investment? 148 00:07:01,620 --> 00:07:04,670 Basically, we express the obstacles to defining what's possible to do, 149 00:07:04,670 --> 00:07:07,500 and what isn't, and then take action: either directly internally, 150 00:07:07,500 --> 00:07:10,420 which is exactly what we say about changing what you put on your plate, 151 00:07:10,420 --> 00:07:12,090 that's up to me (Candice Enderlé: Yes). 152 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:13,700 I decide what goes on my plate. 153 00:07:13,710 --> 00:07:15,900 Building a bike path is more complicated. 154 00:07:15,930 --> 00:07:17,850 Candice Enderlé: But give you a choice. 155 00:07:17,850 --> 00:07:21,260 And that's really important too, so that the person can realize "Ok, 156 00:07:21,260 --> 00:07:24,710 there are different possibilities", and depending on their values, 157 00:07:24,710 --> 00:07:28,150 depending on their involvement, depending on their possibilities, 158 00:07:28,150 --> 00:07:30,420 they can choose to go for this or that solution. 159 00:07:30,450 --> 00:07:33,700 Thomas Wansart: Exactly. So we have a common vision, a common objective, 160 00:07:33,700 --> 00:07:37,220 but the way to get there is subject to different constraints, 161 00:07:37,220 --> 00:07:40,290 so it's up to the individual to define how to get there. 162 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,840 Candice Enderlé: And it's important to respect that too (Thomas Wansart: 163 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,900 Exactly), because it makes people feel more valued in their choice, 164 00:07:45,900 --> 00:07:47,500 and they don't feel guilty about it. 165 00:07:47,550 --> 00:07:52,240 Thomas Wansart: Oui. In fact, to achieve systemic change, 80-90% of people need to agree. 166 00:07:52,260 --> 00:07:55,860 In our vision, we explain: today we have a carbon footprint of around 13 167 00:07:55,860 --> 00:07:59,650 tonnes in Belgium (Candice Enderlé: Mm), including imported emissions, 168 00:07:59,650 --> 00:08:02,500 so we have a systemic vision, it's not just territorial. 169 00:08:02,530 --> 00:08:05,230 It's a bit technical, but I won't go into that. So we say "Ideally, 170 00:08:05,230 --> 00:08:08,670 we should achieve a footprint of between 6 and 8 tonnes (Candice Enderlé: 171 00:08:08,670 --> 00:08:09,960 Oh yeah) of CO2 equivalent. 172 00:08:09,970 --> 00:08:14,000 And we're not announcing two tons in 2050, two tons in 2050 today is not possible, 173 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,030 as an individual it's impossible so it can be discouraging. 174 00:08:17,050 --> 00:08:19,020 The 6 to 8 tons are possible, but we say "Here, 175 00:08:19,020 --> 00:08:21,670 you have a quota of 6 to 8 tons, and you can put in what you want. 176 00:08:21,670 --> 00:08:25,120 If you're a rally fan, you do X thousands of rally kilometers. 177 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,050 We're not going to forbid you to pursue your passion. On the other hand, we make you aware 178 00:08:28,050 --> 00:08:30,860 that your passion has an important impact. You can go on rallying, 179 00:08:30,860 --> 00:08:33,720 but on the other hand, maybe I can eat a little less meat, 180 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,440 or travel by plane a little less". 181 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,580 So, everyone is free to do what they want, but if we want to achieve a decarbonized 182 00:08:39,580 --> 00:08:42,920 world, well not a decarbonized world, but a decarbonized world, 183 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,410 we need to make some changes. 184 00:08:44,410 --> 00:08:48,830 But we want to leave everyone free to make the changes that seem coherent and possible, 185 00:08:48,830 --> 00:08:49,450 that's all. 186 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,360 Michel: What I like about what you've said is that there's an agile approach to what I'm 187 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,480 hearing. If you take the toy library (Thomas Wansart: Yes), it's a pretty nimble approach. 188 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,650 And what I also like is that you talk about health, 189 00:08:57,650 --> 00:09:00,850 and that's a point of honor that we at Midoricast come back to regularly. 190 00:09:00,850 --> 00:09:04,900 Why? Because for me, health is also a climate and environmental issue. 191 00:09:04,900 --> 00:09:08,740 When you're unwell and taking medication, you're putting pharmaceutical industries to 192 00:09:08,740 --> 00:09:11,800 work, and disposing of the drugs you've ingested into the environment. 193 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,520 And so we pollute ourselves, we become a pollutant. 194 00:09:14,530 --> 00:09:17,510 So, if I understand correctly, if I summarize everything that's just been 195 00:09:17,510 --> 00:09:20,650 explained, the main mission of your organization is really to focus on carbon 196 00:09:20,650 --> 00:09:23,100 impact (Thomas Wansart: Yes) and the ecological footprint. 197 00:09:23,380 --> 00:09:27,450 Thomas Wansart: So we're focusing on fossil fuels, reducing fossil fuels, 198 00:09:27,450 --> 00:09:33,070 which is both a climatic issue (Michel: Mm) because it increases climate change, 199 00:09:33,070 --> 00:09:35,710 and a strategic, geostrategic issue. 200 00:09:35,710 --> 00:09:39,860 In other words, a country like Belgium, which is 75% dependent on fossil fuels, 201 00:09:39,860 --> 00:09:44,450 will find itself constrained in the future, knowing that Europe will have fewer fossil 202 00:09:44,450 --> 00:09:46,680 fuels. So there is both an environmental issue, 203 00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:50,380 but also a question of reducing this dependence in order to be more autonomous as 204 00:09:50,380 --> 00:09:52,050 a country, as a nation, as a citizen! 205 00:09:52,060 --> 00:09:55,170 If tomorrow there's less petrol, if tomorrow there's less heating oil, 206 00:09:55,170 --> 00:09:56,410 if tomorrow there's less... 207 00:09:56,410 --> 00:09:58,120 Well, everyone's going to be affected. 208 00:09:58,130 --> 00:10:01,630 And anticipating this today is extremely important because we're not going to, 209 00:10:01,630 --> 00:10:04,490 there's no oil under Brussels (Michel: In Belgium) or in Belgium. 210 00:10:04,490 --> 00:10:08,250 And so, in fact, this dependence must also be reduced for strategic reasons, 211 00:10:08,250 --> 00:10:11,550 in addition to climatic ones, which for me are largely sufficient, 212 00:10:11,550 --> 00:10:14,300 but which are not necessarily sufficient for everyone! 213 00:10:14,450 --> 00:10:18,570 Michel: Doesn't this give you a super-powerful lever in the sense that, 214 00:10:18,570 --> 00:10:21,830 when you propose solutions, people will use them? 215 00:10:21,830 --> 00:10:25,030 And then they'll realize, because they do, that they're going to save a 216 00:10:25,030 --> 00:10:28,850 lot of money. People see constraints, but when they realize the portfolio savings 217 00:10:28,850 --> 00:10:30,920 they make, there's a powerful lever we have. 218 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,500 How often does this kind of thing happen? Can you see it? 219 00:10:33,530 --> 00:10:36,490 Thomas Wansart: Oui. In fact, all the talk about reduction, a little complacency, 220 00:10:36,490 --> 00:10:40,140 sobriety, we realize that people in precarious situations already have all these 221 00:10:40,140 --> 00:10:41,690 behaviors (Candice Enderlé: Yes). 222 00:10:41,690 --> 00:10:43,930 We have nothing to teach these people. 223 00:10:44,180 --> 00:10:46,100 Candice Enderlé: That's right, because there's an economic issue behind it. 224 00:10:46,130 --> 00:10:47,060 Thomas Wansart: Voilà (Candice Enderlé: Which is pretty obvious). The economic 225 00:10:47,060 --> 00:10:49,970 question is obvious. And so, basically, it's the middle classes, 226 00:10:49,970 --> 00:10:52,700 the well-to-do classes, who are going to say "Ah, but here, I realize 227 00:10:52,700 --> 00:10:55,350 that". So, in some cases, there's a perfect match: 228 00:10:55,350 --> 00:10:58,190 reducing your energy expenditure works perfectly. 229 00:10:58,190 --> 00:11:01,600 Reducing the number of kilometers driven works perfectly. Today's electric cars are 230 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,520 more expensive than petrol cars, and that's not a good sign. 231 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,140 Even if the first thing to do is reduce your mileage. Another example is the train, which 232 00:11:08,140 --> 00:11:10,540 is much more environmentally friendly than the plane, 233 00:11:10,540 --> 00:11:13,250 but unfortunately today it's not as competitive as the plane. 234 00:11:13,250 --> 00:11:15,950 So that's two issues, and in some cases, it's not always easy. 235 00:11:15,950 --> 00:11:18,300 Insulating your home is relatively expensive, 236 00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:20,810 but the energy savings will remain relatively low. 237 00:11:20,810 --> 00:11:24,210 Switching from oil to electricity to heat your home is much, 238 00:11:24,210 --> 00:11:26,930 much cheaper in some countries than in Belgium. 239 00:11:26,930 --> 00:11:30,750 In Belgium, it's still not enough. So it's true that sobriety is often what people 240 00:11:30,750 --> 00:11:33,870 confuse, isn't it? There's a form of sobriety that can be very happy: 241 00:11:33,870 --> 00:11:36,470 keeping things longer, living with less, saving a lot of time, 242 00:11:36,470 --> 00:11:39,730 that's something that makes you extremely happy. But when it's undergone, 243 00:11:39,730 --> 00:11:43,280 it's not a choice, and so it's just as important to bring these nuances to the 244 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:43,610 table. 245 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,620 Michel: Do you ever work with the Eco-construction cluster? Because they have quite a few 246 00:11:46,620 --> 00:11:49,500 construction companies that are affected by the comment you just made. 247 00:11:49,550 --> 00:11:51,680 Thomas Wansart: Yes, well today we don't work directly with them, 248 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:53,560 we're quite young, only a year and a half old. 249 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:55,210 Michel: But we're going to make contact, Candice? 250 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:55,990 Candice Enderlé: Of course you can. 251 00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:58,280 Thomas Wansart: In the last year and a half, we've been trying to forge a lot of 252 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,660 partnerships, and we're already in contact with a lot of communes and companies, but not 253 00:12:01,660 --> 00:12:03,250 yet with them, so it's a great pleasure, yes. 254 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,720 Michel: Well there you have it, we've got an action item for us Candice 255 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:05,970 today. 256 00:12:06,220 --> 00:12:08,210 Candice Enderlé: Yes. And Thomas, when you get up in the morning, 257 00:12:08,210 --> 00:12:08,870 how do you feel? 258 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,240 Thomas Wansart: I could use four adjectives to describe what I do (Candice Enderlé: Yes), how I feel. The 259 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,530 first is pride, I think I'm pretty proud to be working in this business, to be making an 260 00:12:15,530 --> 00:12:18,250 impact, or at least trying to. The second is lucidity, because when you look at what's at 261 00:12:18,250 --> 00:12:20,090 stake in the media, etc., it's clear that there's a lot at stake. You 262 00:12:20,090 --> 00:12:23,250 have to keep a clear head. We're working on an extremely complicated (Candice Enderlé: 263 00:12:23,250 --> 00:12:25,550 Yes), extremely systemic problem. Nevertheless, 264 00:12:25,550 --> 00:12:29,410 I'm optimistic, because I have the impression that people, 265 00:12:29,410 --> 00:12:32,800 and companies, are more demanding than what we hear. 266 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,720 Recently, HEC Paris and "We are Europe" did some work on CSRD. 267 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,590 We hear everywhere that no company wants "CSRD", 268 00:12:40,590 --> 00:12:43,040 but when we do a study, 67% or 61% are for it, 269 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:43,810 which is odd. 270 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:45,100 Candice Enderlé: Now that's a figure that speaks for itself! 271 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:46,570 Thomas Wansart: This is extremely important. 272 00:12:46,570 --> 00:12:50,160 For me, there's a real challenge in relaying the voices of companies that think 273 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,920 differently. It's the same with farmers (Candice Enderlé: Yeah). When we talk to 274 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,010 farmers, they say, "Yeah, we don't want environmental standards, 275 00:12:56,010 --> 00:12:57,900 we don't want standards in terms of...". 276 00:12:57,900 --> 00:13:00,180 The big problem is competition and prices. 277 00:13:00,180 --> 00:13:03,440 And in fact, if environmental standards can protect us because we produce better, we're 278 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,500 100% for it." If we look at the general public, wastage is typically something that's 279 00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:09,080 deeply rooted in our values: not finishing your plate can cost you hours 280 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,110 of face-to-face time with your parents (Candice Enderlé: With your children, yes), 281 00:13:12,110 --> 00:13:14,450 your dad, your mom. I take myself as a child, but in fact, 282 00:13:14,450 --> 00:13:17,040 with your children, because it's a deeply rooted value. 283 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,910 On this potentially anti-waste value, there are ways of doing things. 284 00:13:20,910 --> 00:13:24,540 Keeping things for a long time is something that's quite deeply rooted in our values. And 285 00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:27,190 so, in the end, these values are there. The way we wake them up, 286 00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:30,580 the way we make them understand that taking a flight for a weekend to Rome, 287 00:13:30,580 --> 00:13:33,730 Barcelona, whatever, is a form of energy wastage (Candice Enderlé: 288 00:13:33,730 --> 00:13:36,330 Mm) which is completely at odds with the laws of physics, 289 00:13:36,330 --> 00:13:38,450 there are two of them, one is "Nothing is lost, 290 00:13:38,450 --> 00:13:42,440 nothing is created" (Candice Enderlé: Everything transforms) and we've got that one 291 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,870 right. So everything transforms, which means that as soon as I decide to do 292 00:13:45,870 --> 00:13:48,370 something to waste dense energy on less dense energy, 293 00:13:48,370 --> 00:13:51,910 and that goes from using two tons to move an object or a body weighing 80 kilos, 294 00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:55,580 it's not very efficient. We're using very dense energy to finally do something that's a 295 00:13:55,580 --> 00:13:57,760 bit wasteful, to put it like that (Candice Enderlé: 296 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,100 Mm). There are examples like this that are quite important. It's just that we don't have 297 00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:04,800 a clear understanding of what energy is, and what wasting energy is (Candice Enderlé: 298 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,770 That's it), whereas what's on our plates we can see (Candice Enderlé: 299 00:14:07,770 --> 00:14:10,110 Yes). And so this information, this awareness, 300 00:14:10,110 --> 00:14:12,230 is also what "Neo & Neo" is trying to work on. 301 00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:15,640 So in the end, I'd like to say that I diverged a little from the question, 302 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,020 but I think I've answered it. 303 00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:20,450 And the last one, it's tired (Candice Enderlé: Yes) because it's tiring. Today, the 304 00:14:20,450 --> 00:14:23,870 news isn't necessarily good, it's hard, it's tiring and so here I am, 305 00:14:23,870 --> 00:14:26,990 I'd say tired because: through my lucidity, I realize that I'm 306 00:14:26,990 --> 00:14:28,250 facing what I'm tired of. 307 00:14:28,820 --> 00:14:32,540 Candice Enderlé: So proud, lucid, optimistic, tired. 308 00:14:32,540 --> 00:14:35,090 Somehow it reassures me to hear you say that, 309 00:14:35,090 --> 00:14:39,620 because I know you've got the figures, I know you've got the science behind you, 310 00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:42,230 I know you've got the contacts with citizens, 311 00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:44,840 public authorities and also with companies. 312 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:50,680 And so I know that you have a global vision, and that you really understand the subject in 313 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:55,710 all its aspects. And lucid is an important word today. 314 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:00,360 Because this foresight is what allows us to move forward "together". 315 00:15:00,370 --> 00:15:02,380 So that's it, I'm reassured to hear that. 316 00:15:02,380 --> 00:15:05,320 What does alternative entrepreneurship mean to you? 317 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,460 Thomas Wansart: Doing business differently means doing business along the lines of what is viable 318 00:15:09,460 --> 00:15:10,810 for the market, because... 319 00:15:10,810 --> 00:15:14,250 Basically, when you're an entrepreneur, you need to be more or less profitable, 320 00:15:14,250 --> 00:15:16,140 otherwise you can't afford to pay yourself. 321 00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:19,380 What the market is already saying, it will happen (Candice Enderlé: 322 00:15:19,380 --> 00:15:22,740 Yes). In other words, once the CSRD has been set up, 323 00:15:22,740 --> 00:15:25,390 we'll have to carry out carbon audits. 324 00:15:25,390 --> 00:15:28,720 Where it gets more complicated is when you're ahead of the market, 325 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,260 or in fact want to steer the market or steer people. 326 00:15:31,300 --> 00:15:35,750 It's a balancing act, and I think a lot of eco-entrepreneurs are 327 00:15:35,750 --> 00:15:39,300 like that. In fact, they know what's good for the planet, 328 00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:43,770 for people, for living things, but the market today doesn't allow them to 329 00:15:43,770 --> 00:15:46,320 respond. Generally speaking, we're in an international market, so 330 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,890 competition is pretty fierce. And in this fierce competition, there are very different 331 00:15:49,890 --> 00:15:52,820 levels of respect for the environment between Belgium and Europe - 332 00:15:52,820 --> 00:15:55,060 and I say China, but it could be other countries too - 333 00:15:55,060 --> 00:15:57,510 but also very different social and working conditions. 334 00:15:57,510 --> 00:16:00,730 We have to find what appeals to the market, to people, 335 00:16:00,730 --> 00:16:05,180 in a very competitive system, and what enables us to make a living from it, 336 00:16:05,180 --> 00:16:08,940 and what corresponds to our values so that the market changes. 337 00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:11,440 So there you have it, I'd say that's what it's all about. 338 00:16:11,460 --> 00:16:16,100 And I'd also like to add a point, which is quite important, 339 00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:22,470 and that is the fact that 67% of companies that are in favor of CSRD are in favor of 340 00:16:22,470 --> 00:16:24,970 changing the rules of the game! 341 00:16:24,390 --> 00:16:25,260 Candice Enderlé: That's it. 342 00:16:25,290 --> 00:16:28,680 Thomas Wansart: Today, for me, the game is like Monopoly, there are rules, except that you go round and 343 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:29,690 round in circles, but... 344 00:16:29,730 --> 00:16:30,800 Candice Enderlé: The rules are actually better! 345 00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:33,250 Thomas Wansart: The rules are actually better. And so we can add boxes, 346 00:16:33,250 --> 00:16:36,750 and it's great to add ecological boxes with other products. 347 00:16:36,780 --> 00:16:39,720 There's also a need to think about rules, and rules come from above. 348 00:16:39,930 --> 00:16:41,010 Candice Enderlé: And that's why we're here. 349 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,050 Thomas Wansart: And that's it. And that's why "KAYA" is there, so it's very good. 350 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,150 Candice Enderlé: How does "Neo & Nea" align with this vision of doing business differently? 351 00:16:47,190 --> 00:16:50,080 Thomas Wansart: We've defined our vision, as I explained earlier, 352 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:51,920 to go from thirteen to 6 to 8 tons. 353 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,810 Everything we do is aimed at aligning with our vision, 354 00:16:54,810 --> 00:16:59,030 which in fact advocates a different world, one less dependent on fossil fuels. 355 00:16:59,060 --> 00:17:02,410 Candice Enderlé: On the other hand, I'd just like to come back to a word you used. 356 00:17:02,410 --> 00:17:06,010 When we talk about a new world, or the world we should be aiming for, 357 00:17:06,010 --> 00:17:09,320 we're talking about a more sober world, a sustainable world. 358 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,230 You just say a different world. 359 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:16,050 And I like that because it also leaves the door open to lots of different possibilities. 360 00:17:16,070 --> 00:17:19,910 And it allows everyone to find their way around and have their own vision, 361 00:17:19,910 --> 00:17:23,090 and their own approach to the different world that's coming. 362 00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:25,350 Michel: There's a great deal of respect in your approach. 363 00:17:25,820 --> 00:17:28,710 Thomas Wansart: Yes. I think that what you're talking about as being different, 364 00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:30,550 for me, is something we have a lot to gain. 365 00:17:30,590 --> 00:17:33,310 My angle is necessarily climate, energy (Candice Enderlé: Yes) and the 366 00:17:33,310 --> 00:17:36,820 environment, which is an important foundation for the way the world works. But there may 367 00:17:36,820 --> 00:17:39,820 also be time to be saved, and in fact people are going to want more 368 00:17:39,820 --> 00:17:41,070 time to do certain things. 369 00:17:41,090 --> 00:17:43,550 And there are plenty of other things to be gained, 370 00:17:43,550 --> 00:17:46,370 which I'm less familiar with, so I won't talk about them, 371 00:17:46,370 --> 00:17:49,490 but I am convinced that to bring people into a different world, 372 00:17:49,490 --> 00:17:53,210 to bring 80-90% of people there, well, people have to find their way around 373 00:17:53,210 --> 00:17:55,080 and have something to bring them there. 374 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,210 80-90% of people, that's a lot (Candice Enderlé: 375 00:17:57,210 --> 00:17:59,600 Yes) and to pretend to say "Here, this is what you want". 376 00:17:59,610 --> 00:18:02,670 May I be so bold as to say, "Is that what a decarbonized world is all 377 00:18:02,670 --> 00:18:04,170 about? How do you put yourself down? I know you have to do this, this, this... To have a 378 00:18:04,170 --> 00:18:07,670 different world, I don't have that pretension (Candice Enderlé: That's right). There are 379 00:18:07,670 --> 00:18:10,110 plenty of people who need to put their knowledge and expertise into this. 380 00:18:10,140 --> 00:18:13,660 Michel: And here, I think it's the political world that has the power to leverage and act. And 381 00:18:13,660 --> 00:18:16,060 so this leads us to the question: what should happen, 382 00:18:16,060 --> 00:18:19,060 at the political level, so that these kinds of things and missions 383 00:18:19,060 --> 00:18:21,400 that you do, that you generate, that you stimulate, 384 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,120 that you activate (Thomas Wansart: Yes), are a norm in fact, 385 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:25,100 and not an exception. 386 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,480 Thomas Wansart: That's a very good question. 387 00:18:26,490 --> 00:18:29,990 Let me take an example from the world of politics. In Germany, they have invested 340 388 00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:32,570 billion euros in building renovation and insulation. 389 00:18:32,580 --> 00:18:38,540 These 340 billion euros have reduced energy consumption by one kilowatt-hour per square 390 00:18:38,540 --> 00:18:39,000 metre. 391 00:18:39,030 --> 00:18:39,480 Michel: But here goes. 392 00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:41,430 Thomas Wansart: They went from 131 to 130. 393 00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:45,100 What does it mean? That means they've completely overlooked the rebound effect, 394 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:47,750 they've completely overlooked the fact of behavioral change, 395 00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:51,000 and they've potentially forgotten to have a shared vision (Candice Enderlé: 396 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,220 Mm). In other words, for 340 billion euros, add a few million euros or even a few hundred 397 00:18:56,220 --> 00:18:59,180 thousand euros to "That's why we're doing this. 398 00:18:59,180 --> 00:19:01,460 The idea, in fact (Candice Endrerlé: Yes), is to reduce our energy dependence. 399 00:19:01,460 --> 00:19:04,770 You're going to move back into a better insulated home, but we ask you to keep an eye 400 00:19:04,770 --> 00:19:08,130 on the temperature at which you heat, otherwise everything will be cancelled". And 401 00:19:08,130 --> 00:19:11,250 that's extremely complicated for a politician because, but in any case, not taking that 402 00:19:11,250 --> 00:19:14,140 into account, not taking the rebound effect into account in all the technical and 403 00:19:14,140 --> 00:19:16,880 technological innovations we make, means repeating the mistakes of the past 404 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,630 (Candice Enderlé: Is that it?). And how can politicians become aware of this? 405 00:19:20,630 --> 00:19:25,010 It's about combining technological innovation with an understanding of why we're doing what 406 00:19:25,010 --> 00:19:28,830 we're doing, and getting people to embrace this low-carbon world so that virtuous 407 00:19:28,830 --> 00:19:31,480 behaviors, let's say less energy-intensive behaviors, 408 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,910 are maintained, even if the bill would make it impossible to maintain them. 409 00:19:34,940 --> 00:19:37,350 Candice Enderlé: (Thomas Wansart: It's a question of money too). The cohesion of the end-user in 410 00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:40,570 quotation marks is extremely important (Thomas Wansart: 411 00:19:40,570 --> 00:19:43,480 Voilà). Because if you're given an object you don't know how to use, 412 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,930 well, the risk is that you'll use it badly (Thomas Wansart: 413 00:19:45,930 --> 00:19:48,020 Yes). That's kind of the point. 414 00:19:48,050 --> 00:19:51,290 Thomas Wansart: And the other issue, which is why I often talk about the 90, the 90% (Candice Enderlé: 415 00:19:51,290 --> 00:19:54,280 Yes), is that today, the models we have in our societies are people who consume 416 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,140 enormously (Candice Enderlé: Mm). The fact of using a private jet to get 417 00:19:57,140 --> 00:19:59,890 from point A to point B, you can see behind that what's going to come 418 00:19:59,890 --> 00:20:02,890 out on social networks is "Me, I'm being asked to switch from a petrol car 419 00:20:02,890 --> 00:20:06,490 to an electric car, just look at them". And this has been studied, there are scientific 420 00:20:06,490 --> 00:20:10,140 articles showing the negative impact on people's environmental commitment (Candice 421 00:20:10,140 --> 00:20:13,190 Enderlé: Of course - Michel: On people's minds), on their minds, on their 422 00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:16,910 desire to change. And being aware of this is also extremely important for me. 423 00:20:16,910 --> 00:20:20,330 Michel: In everything we've said so far, there's one thing that speaks to me: 424 00:20:20,330 --> 00:20:23,270 does it have an impact on the way you run your organization? 425 00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:25,880 What makes you proud of your company's governance? 426 00:20:25,910 --> 00:20:30,050 Thomas Wansart: What makes me proud is that we have a lot of respect within the team. 427 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:30,980 Michel: Putting people at the center. 428 00:20:31,010 --> 00:20:34,050 Thomas Wansart: I've gone to work in certain companies where I didn't like going to work. When you don't 429 00:20:34,050 --> 00:20:37,150 like going to work somewhere, you don't feel good. When you become a boss, 430 00:20:37,150 --> 00:20:40,750 as I do in my business, it's important to remember how you thought 431 00:20:40,750 --> 00:20:43,170 when you were an employee (Michel: Right). 432 00:20:43,170 --> 00:20:46,240 Because it allows us to say to ourselves "Wait a minute, 433 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,000 I've decided this, but I haven't talked about it. 434 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,970 Finally, shouldn't I have mentioned it? Right now, I'd like to make this happen, 435 00:20:52,970 --> 00:20:55,820 do I force him, do I make him understand why". 436 00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:57,050 Michel: It's about empathy. 437 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,270 Thomas Wansart: Here we are. Show a lot of empathy, have confidence, 438 00:20:59,270 --> 00:21:02,710 and that translates into us having a team that works very well together, 439 00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:05,400 but we also have a community, behind "Néo & Néa" (Michel: 440 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,090 Ahhh). There are around fifty people who support "Neo & Neo" by, 441 00:21:09,090 --> 00:21:12,990 for example, proofreading the calculator, relaying our events, 442 00:21:12,990 --> 00:21:14,990 and a whole range of other things. 443 00:21:14,990 --> 00:21:18,460 And today we've trained 40 people to give the workshops we've created. 444 00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:19,850 Candice Enderlé: Lots of volunteers too! 445 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,500 Thomas Wansart: That's a lot of volunteer support. 446 00:21:21,530 --> 00:21:22,430 Candice Enderlé: A commitment. 447 00:21:22,550 --> 00:21:26,420 Thomas Wansart: Here we are. And so these 40 people who are being trained today in our workshops, 448 00:21:26,420 --> 00:21:27,980 they give it, we gave them too. 449 00:21:27,980 --> 00:21:30,430 This means that, in the year since we created the workshop, 450 00:21:30,430 --> 00:21:33,170 4,000 people have taken part. So 4,000 people is not bad. 451 00:21:33,170 --> 00:21:33,620 Candice Enderlé: It's huge. 452 00:21:33,650 --> 00:21:36,840 Thomas Wansart: And, since we created the platform, people have been inviting us to calculate 453 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,120 their carbon footprint on "Neo & Nea", and 25,000 people have done so in the space 454 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:43,170 of a year and a half. (Michel: And to your smile...), these are figures that 455 00:21:43,170 --> 00:21:43,400 we... 456 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,450 Michel: I see your battery is charging (Thomas Wansart: Yeah, it is, it is...). You said you 457 00:21:45,450 --> 00:21:47,090 were tired, but this charges your battery! 458 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:49,160 Thomas Wansart: What's up, what's up. What's up, what's up. 459 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,850 That's where it comes from, these are very important figures. I think 460 00:21:51,850 --> 00:21:56,150 there's a vision I had at the outset, but I didn't bring it about at all. 461 00:21:56,180 --> 00:21:58,790 It's the whole community, all the people who support us, who share, who 462 00:21:58,790 --> 00:22:01,330 relay. And the importance of maintaining a lot of empathy, 463 00:22:01,330 --> 00:22:04,610 a lot of respect, a lot of trust, a lot of transparency too (Candice Enderlé: 464 00:22:04,610 --> 00:22:07,520 Yes), we have an activity report which is: we explain the expenses, 465 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,890 the choices we make, the vision we have, which is not at all an activity report, 466 00:22:10,890 --> 00:22:12,530 I'll say standards with the accounts. 467 00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:13,670 Michel: This is true transparency. 468 00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:16,850 Thomas Wansart: Here we are. I don't republish, so I studied accounting. 469 00:22:16,850 --> 00:22:20,680 The balance sheet, I know there's maybe one person in 100 who understands what it means 470 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,640 (Candice Enderlé: Mm) and so I translate it. 471 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,920 And I explain what's behind it: here's what we pay in social security 472 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,900 charges, here's what we pay in this, how much is left, that. Because, for people 473 00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:30,860 to trust "Néo & Néa", to give a little of their time to "Néo & 474 00:22:30,860 --> 00:22:34,510 Néo", to support "Néo & Néa", they have to see the project as beautiful, 475 00:22:34,510 --> 00:22:36,940 virtuous, but above all: they have to trust it, 476 00:22:36,940 --> 00:22:39,050 and that's something you have to work at. 477 00:22:39,050 --> 00:22:42,000 Candice Enderlé: I don't know about you Michel, but I'm full of admiration! 478 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,270 (Michel: Well, I've got, I've got chills) Because I really feel 479 00:22:45,270 --> 00:22:49,380 Thomas' humility in everything you do, and I think that's what enables people to 480 00:22:49,380 --> 00:22:52,820 adhere to what you propose and to have this shared vision in the end. 481 00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:55,630 Michel: What is your position within "Kaya"? How do you feel about "Kaya"? 482 00:22:55,660 --> 00:22:59,400 Thomas Wansart: Within "Kaya" and what "Kaya" represents for corporate advocacy, 483 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,390 for me this is extremely important. 484 00:23:01,390 --> 00:23:04,750 The voice of companies, of the majority of companies. 485 00:23:04,750 --> 00:23:06,040 Michel: The voice of ecopreneurs. 486 00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:08,930 Thomas Wansart: Ecopreneurs, but I'd say even more broadly in fact, because there are a lot of companies 487 00:23:08,930 --> 00:23:11,440 that have their noses to the grindstone, that we don't hear from, but that are 488 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,090 suffering from these constraints, that would like to change but can't. And so I 489 00:23:14,090 --> 00:23:16,490 think there are the "Kaya" Ecopreneurs, let's say, 490 00:23:16,490 --> 00:23:18,990 those with the brand or label, but that behind "Kaya", 491 00:23:18,990 --> 00:23:22,290 there are lots of companies that are a bit in between (Candice Enderlé: 492 00:23:22,290 --> 00:23:25,680 Yes). And who, for me, all stand to gain from what "Kaya" is 493 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,980 proposing because, in a way, what "Kaya" is proposing is also to protect 494 00:23:29,980 --> 00:23:34,810 them from all those who do not respect the social and environmental conditions, 495 00:23:34,810 --> 00:23:38,980 which are already a given, and which companies are already obliged to 496 00:23:38,980 --> 00:23:39,520 respect. 497 00:23:39,610 --> 00:23:40,000 Candice Enderlé: Of course you can. 498 00:23:40,030 --> 00:23:42,350 Thomas Wansart: "Kaya" tries to bring about change, to evolve, 499 00:23:42,350 --> 00:23:45,550 to further increase its social and environmental constraints, 500 00:23:45,550 --> 00:23:46,900 it's extremely necessary. 501 00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:49,070 We already have a whole series of achievements, 502 00:23:49,070 --> 00:23:52,430 but in an international world, these achievements are systematically in 503 00:23:52,430 --> 00:23:53,620 competition with others. 504 00:23:53,620 --> 00:23:58,170 And so, for me, the voice of "Kaya" must also carry the voice of the achievements we've 505 00:23:58,170 --> 00:24:00,100 made, in order to reach more people. 506 00:24:00,130 --> 00:24:02,960 And so, I feel very strongly about entrepreneurs, 507 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,450 businesses, making their voice heard, it's extremely important and so I'm very 508 00:24:07,450 --> 00:24:08,920 happy to be part of "Kaya". 509 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,100 Personally, we're a year and a half in and I don't have time to get busy or do enough of 510 00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:16,140 the things I'd like to do for "Kaya", to talk about it so much. 511 00:24:16,180 --> 00:24:19,030 I was at the general meeting, and it's important to be there and to be 512 00:24:19,030 --> 00:24:21,630 present and to, well, I'm not going to say that I'm going to get 513 00:24:21,630 --> 00:24:24,620 much more involved, but a little more involved in "Kaya" afterwards. 514 00:24:24,820 --> 00:24:27,650 Michel: Especially since you're already a community organizer, 515 00:24:27,650 --> 00:24:31,500 and you're a community with "Kaya", and I think that's the right conclusion to 516 00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:31,960 sum it up. 517 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,660 Candice Enderlé: Exactly. And then you're here today (Thomas Wansart: Yes of course) to talk about it 518 00:24:34,660 --> 00:24:36,640 (Thomas Wansart: I'm here, I'm here today to talk about it) and that's 519 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:37,150 super important. 520 00:24:37,180 --> 00:24:37,930 Michel: And inspire. 521 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,430 Thomas Wansart: It may be the syndrome of... 522 00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:40,180 Candice Enderlé: Of not doing enough? 523 00:24:40,210 --> 00:24:42,370 Thomas Wansart: Of not doing enough, of the entrepreneur who always wants to do more (Candice Enderlé: 524 00:24:42,370 --> 00:24:42,520 Yes). 525 00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:44,700 Michel: Well, you're creating chills, and I've been getting goose bumps (Thomas 526 00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:46,790 Wansart: Ben voilà) since earlier, so that gives me a good vibe, and thank you 527 00:24:46,790 --> 00:24:50,260 for that. And speaking of good vibes and magic, because you're creating a bit of magic 528 00:24:50,260 --> 00:24:52,470 here for everyone to see, if you had a real magic wand, 529 00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:53,580 what would you do, Thomas? 530 00:24:53,630 --> 00:24:56,600 How would you change the world? Let utopia take its place! 531 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,730 Thomas Wansart: Let me come back to my introduction. I think I'd send everyone to 2050, 532 00:24:59,730 --> 00:25:03,040 to spend a week in 2050 (Candice Enderlé: Oh yeah) to see (Michel: 533 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,640 Oh yeah) what the world is like. 534 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,090 Because the problem we have is that we compare tomorrow with the constraints we hear 535 00:25:08,090 --> 00:25:11,610 today, but we don't compare it with tomorrow and the constraints we're going to face, 536 00:25:11,610 --> 00:25:14,800 whether we like it or not. And so, a week's immersion to understand this, 537 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,420 I think, would make a lot of people sit up and take notice, 538 00:25:17,420 --> 00:25:19,040 and potentially have a big impact. 539 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,880 And that when people come back, that would be my greatest wish, that they 540 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,420 would at the same time have the desire to act. And the other point, which is extremely 541 00:25:25,420 --> 00:25:28,560 important, is to listen to what the scientists say (Candice Enderlé: 542 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,950 Yes), because they know, they study, they're right. 543 00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:35,930 That's the message I'd like to give them. 544 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,230 Michel: And I complete it with "And anchor the change, which makes it permanent". Because 545 00:25:39,230 --> 00:25:42,310 when it comes to change management, what people forget is that: you have to be 546 00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:45,410 aware, you have to want to change, and applying change is already a big job, and 547 00:25:45,410 --> 00:25:48,480 you're in a good position to know that. But to make it sustainable, 548 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,320 we need to anchor these changes. 549 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,560 And we're always ready to adapt, because that's the agile side of the 550 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,530 approach, so I'd like to invite our listeners to make any comments they may have. 551 00:25:59,530 --> 00:26:01,920 Maybe leave you a voicemail, there's a voicemail link, 552 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,150 we can, there's an answering machine, we can click, 553 00:26:04,150 --> 00:26:06,130 we can leave you a voicemail, we'll pass it on. 554 00:26:06,130 --> 00:26:07,470 And then there's our Candice YouTube channel! 555 00:26:07,930 --> 00:26:12,070 Candice Enderlé: Yes, you can subscribe to the page to receive all the latest "Parole d'écopreneur" 556 00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:12,700 interviews. 557 00:26:12,730 --> 00:26:15,380 Michel: Exactly. And subscribe to the "Kaya" YouTube channel, 558 00:26:15,380 --> 00:26:16,630 go to the site, visit the site. 559 00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:18,850 And visit your site, so your site, your URL is? 560 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,190 Thomas Wansart: "Neo & Nea dot be. I'm going to spell it out, 561 00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:24,470 because there are lots of vowels: "N E O,E,N EA - 562 00:26:24,470 --> 00:26:25,230 Point be". 563 00:26:25,510 --> 00:26:27,130 Michel: Perfect, the link will be in the description, see you soon! 564 00:26:27,130 --> 00:26:28,120 Candice Enderlé: Thank you very much Thomas. 565 00:26:28,150 --> 00:26:28,660 Thomas Wansart: Thank you very much. 566 00:26:28,690 --> 00:26:29,410 Candice Enderlé: Merci Michel. 567 00:26:29,410 --> 00:26:32,480 Michel: You've listened to a podcast episode of "Kaya", 568 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,850 "Paroles d'écopreneur", inspiring stories of people who do things 569 00:26:36,850 --> 00:26:40,970 differently. A "Kaya" podcast, with the support of the "Loterie Nationale".