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Entr'Nous.

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Entr'Nous, the podcast to talk 
about

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sexuality.

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By you, with you, 
for

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you.

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Hello, welcome to this 79th episode 
of the podcast "Entr'Nous",

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the podcast of the "Love Health 
Center",

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an association located in Brussels 
but recently also in Wavre,

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so in Walloon Brabant, 
which is around Brussels,

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dedicated to well-being, 
relationships,

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and sexuality. For individuals as 
well as professionals,

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individually, as couples, 
or in groups.

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So there you go, 
our services are quite broad, and

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we are very creative. And today we 
are dedicating the podcast to

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masculinism, and I have the 
pleasure of having Fanny on the

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microphone. Hello Fanny.

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Hello Olivier, hello everyone.

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Could you introduce yourself in a 
few words,

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just to give us an idea of who you 
are?

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Of course, I am a 
psycho-sexologist,

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committed, inclusive, 
and full of creativity.

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And so I'm inviting you to talk 
about masculinism,

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because you actually dedicated time 
and work to this topic.

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So you've explored it in depth for

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quite some time, in fact.

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That's right.

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Freshly and recently, 
it's a topic of passion,

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you are brimming with information 
on the subject.

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Since it's an emerging topic, 
quite emerging in fact in today's

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society, in any case we are hearing 
about it again. I think it's

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fantastic that you agree to share 
this with the parents listening to

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us, the educators, 
basically people interested in the

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subject, to learn more about it.

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Could you share a bit of your 
intention,

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here and now, regarding recording a 
podcast together?

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And by the way, it's your first 
podcast.

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Thank you for daring to do it.

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Thank you for the invitation.

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I would say that my intention is 
primarily preventive,

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since it's important for me to talk 
about it,

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whether for the young people 
concerned,

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but also for parents.

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And for people who are on social 
media and don't really understand

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what is going on right now.

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I also want to open up a topic; 
my research topic was to understand

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straight men's sexuality arising 
from the masculinist movement,

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its trivialization, 
and its rise, and see what follows

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in intimate, relational, and

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emotional life, actually.

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Yeah, as you say, 
we talk about masculinism,

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but it's broad, and it's especially 
masculinists (Fanny Galodé:

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Yeah) that we observe in concrete 
ways too.

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Statements, writings, 
or influence trends among men,

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so we're going to unpack all of 
that.

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And before getting into the topic, 
it's our little ritual,

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after setting intentions, 
to tell us in a few words:

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what is sexuality to you?

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For me, sexuality immediately 
brings to mind the words sharing,

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vibration. Yeah, 
that's it, for me sexuality is a

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vibration, it's...

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Laughs - It's magical!

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And we know the power of music on 
the human body,

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the mind. When we say vibration, 
we immediately imagine everything

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that represents in the interaction 
between two people.

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It's a beautiful image that I find 
very powerful,

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thank you. Oh, if only we could 
tell young people that,

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right? - Laughs - 
Break away from taboos and say,

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"What is sexuality?", 
"It's a vibration. Go ahead,

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taste, dance, sing, 
share"

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And I'm here for that, 
it's my job.

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Yes, and besides, 
I wish you a wonderful career as a

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sexologist, and not just that: 
because I know you have several

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dreams, and sexology is only one of 
your facets.

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You are a very surprising person, 
very young and at the same time

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with so many accomplishments 
already under your belt,

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it's impressive. As a first 
question,

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what really struck you during your 
work on masculinism?

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Wow! What a broad question!

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I have a lot of answers to that 
question.

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I would say the conversations I was 
able to have with

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certain young men, 
teenagers, and even preteens.

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When I became interested in the 
subject,

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I wanted to talk directly with them 
to understand better,

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because after all, 
I'm a woman, who am I to know what

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these people feel? So that meant 
going through online groups,

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not necessarily all that hidden 
actually,

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they are easy to access.

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And these were men who, 
well, young boys,

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I can't even say men, 
most of them were thirteen years

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old, who felt really bad about not 
having...

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Having a relationship with a girl 
their age,

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not being attractive, 
well, not having...

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Girls not being attracted to them, 
to the point of actually

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contemplating suicide.

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And that was really, 
really poignant for me.

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The other thing that really struck 
me was the rhetoric of what are

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called "pick up artists." Mostly 
men,

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who create content on social media 
to generate buzz,

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to give advice, ranging from 
bodybuilding to lifestyle.

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All the way to spiraling into the 
hatred of women,

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misogyny, sexism, 
and so on.

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And sometimes even leading to the 
encouragement of acting out

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violently. So yeah, 
all of that really shook me up;

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I've seen it all.

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I imagine how impactful it must be 
to delve into a topic that is,

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well, when you discover masculinism 
you go,

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"Wow, it really gives you chills," 
you think,

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"Wow, what actually is this 
movement?" We could actually define

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it, you know, if you can talk about 
it. And then you realize that it's

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both quite poignant individual 
stories,

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but also remarks directed at others 
that are just as disturbing.

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And it's really great if there are 
parents listening to us,

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because whether our child is a girl 
or a boy,

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it doesn't matter, 
they could potentially be exposed

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to this on social media, 
in their thinking,

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and how they'll position 
themselves.

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Because, well, teenagers sometimes 
still don't dare talk to their

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parents. So it's true they might 
keep it to themselves,

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but they're still immersed in it; 
we shouldn't be naive.

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Just like they're exposed to 
pornography at a very young age—we

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know that by 11, 
most kids have already seen porn—so

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masculinism is somewhat part of all 
that,

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and being vigilant.

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Maybe you'd be up for explaining to 
us,

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in your own words, 
for someone who doesn't know

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anything about masculinism, 
what does it represent?

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Yeah, totally. Masculinism is a 
movement made up of several groups

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of men, you know—I don't mean a 
homogeneous group,

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and there really are several of 
them,

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with their own ideology, 
their own way of thinking.

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Their common identity is misogyny 
and sexism,

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violence. It's a reactionary 
movement against modern

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advancements, particularly LGBTQIA+ 
communities,

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women's rights. All of that is a 
threat to them,

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as if women were taking men's place 
today in society,

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in households, in...

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Everywhere, and sexuality.

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Because today, women have the right 
to contraception,

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they have the right to say what 
they need sexually.

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It's kind of a narcissistic

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injury, I'd say.

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A reactionary movement that touches 
a bit on the identity imagined as

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men, which is on the defensive, 
and being on the defensive often

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means fear of vulnerability, 
attack,

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or possibly aggression.

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When you feel threatened in your 
identity.

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It is no small thing to tamper with 
how you feel,

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because it's true that when you 
grow up as a teenager,

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no matter what, you imagine 
belonging:

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either as a human being, 
or to a group,

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or among men, and ultimately 
creating a new

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imagination for yourself.

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Well, precisely, 
I think adolescence is the most

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fertile period for asking yourself 
the question,

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"Okay, who am I?" "Who do I want to 
be,

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who do I identify with?" And there 
are a lot of identity shifts during

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that period. With the tool of 
social media,

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well, it's easy to get access; 
there are actually studies on this

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that show how the algorithm leads a 
young boy to get masculinist

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content on his feed in just a few 
minutes.

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It really raises questions.

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When you, as a young boy, 
ask yourself,

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"Okay, well, who am I?", 
you come across a video:

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"Here, if you're manly, 
if you're like this,

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you'll feel good, 
I'll show you." And there are paid

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courses, etc. but there is still a 
lot of free access with very

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misogynistic rhetoric and...

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yeah, which can also push people 
into extremes;

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it's called looksmaxxing, 
so it's the maximization of

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appearance. What is encouraged is 
having a square jawline,

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so how do you get a square jawline?

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So it can be very simple, 
it can be chewing gum to get a

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squarer jawline because that's said 
to be manly,

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but it can also be hitting yourself 
with hammers,

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having surgery, basically it turns 
into something much more extreme.

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And also with diet, 
there will be videos saying,

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"Okay, if you only eat eggs, 
if you eat raw meat,

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if..." Well, it becomes somewhat 
like malnutrition and yeah,

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disordered eating habits too.

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Yeah, we can imagine the extent to 
which social media can be an echo

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chamber for rhetoric that is 
sometimes not really visible

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publicly, in real life.

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And young people might believe, 
because social media exposes them

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to so many things, 
that a lot of people actually think

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that way. Possibly, 
or with strong,

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simplistic claims that are 
reassuring or give confidence that

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"Oh yeah, if he says it with such 
intensity,

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maybe (Fanny Galodé: 
That's it) that...

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It hits home even harder with young 
people,

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who think, "Wow, 
if he's saying it,

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he sounds so sure of himself, 
it must be true,

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maybe." There's definitely that 
(Fanny Galodé:

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Well...), that feeling.

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Yeah. I don't really want to 
encourage you to watch this kind of

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content, but it's true that you 
almost want to let yourself get

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caught in the net because...

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Well, their studies—I looked them 
up,

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you know! They don't exist, 
or else they're completely baseless

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claims, but when you hear all that,

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when you're young, 
when you don't have critical

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thinking skills, 
well yeah, you can really fall for

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this rhetoric and think, 
"Well actually,

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I want to belong to this group, 
to this man," I don't know,

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to whatever influencer, 
and think,

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"Yeah." After all, 
it's important to have someone to

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identify with when you're young.

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Plus, they're dynamic, 
they show...

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It can come through something other 
than horrible rhetoric;

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it can just be sports.

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I'm not saying you shouldn't watch 
sports content.

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The idea is that to be useful in 
society,

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to appeal to women—well, 
for them that's life's ultimate

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goal—you have to be the most: 
the most muscular,

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the biggest seducer, 
the craftiest,

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especially when it comes to getting 
women.

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It's not simple, 
it's not a light conversation,

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I find it crazy, 
but yeah, it's—it's about wanting

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to maximize your appearance as much 
as possible,

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above all, rather than your 
intelligence,

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your abilities beyond being a 
seducer.

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I mean, it's really centered around 
seduction.

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Or even sensitivity, 
listening skills,

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or curiosity, you know.

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Oh no, that doesn't exist.

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Michel whispers a question in my 
ear,

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saying, "Say, how do women react to 
this kind of content?

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Are they also gullible enough to 
maybe fall into the trap,

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as you were saying, 
or does it infuriate them and they

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see right through it clearly and 
differently?".

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How do you see things regarding 
that?

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That's a very good question.

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I haven't studied female 
masculinists,

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because they do exist.

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I've seen a few videos, 
but I couldn't talk about it as

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well as I can for men.

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There's also talk of tradwives, 
so traditional wives.

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00:10:24,210 --> 00:10:27,859
I don't want to expand on that 
subject since I don't have enough

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data. However, what happened 
recently on social media was a

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00:10:31,850 --> 00:10:36,010
masculinist who came from the 
United States and wanted to test

240
00:10:36,010 --> 00:10:37,450
his appeal in France.

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00:10:37,450 --> 00:10:41,410
Meaning, "OK, well, 
I have so much success in America.

242
00:10:41,410 --> 00:10:45,028
I'm going to try Paris," and it was 
hilarious because it was live,

243
00:10:45,028 --> 00:10:46,770
so he couldn't edit the videos.

244
00:10:46,770 --> 00:10:49,632
And Parisian women were like, 
"What is he doing?" -

245
00:10:49,632 --> 00:10:51,676
Laughs - "I'm not interested at 
all,

246
00:10:51,676 --> 00:10:52,970
I mean, he's so cringe.

247
00:10:53,010 --> 00:10:54,130
I mean, what is he doing?".

248
00:10:54,370 --> 00:10:56,935
I don't know if that technique 
really works;

249
00:10:56,935 --> 00:10:59,847
in the end, it must not make you 
happy for very long.

250
00:10:59,970 --> 00:11:04,802
Another thing that's relevant too 
is that people who start

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00:11:04,802 --> 00:11:09,731
following masculinist advice on 
social media realize full

252
00:11:09,731 --> 00:11:14,560
well that it doesn't help, 
that they won't get more women in

253
00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:16,729
bed with them, seriously!

254
00:11:17,210 --> 00:11:21,973
And so the influencers who sell 
their masculinist training courses

255
00:11:21,973 --> 00:11:26,067
will encourage the person who wants 
to become a more manly,

256
00:11:26,067 --> 00:11:28,490
more seductive man to do even more.

257
00:11:28,530 --> 00:11:31,293
So going further also means acting 
out,

258
00:11:31,293 --> 00:11:34,810
since there is also masculinist 
terrorism today.

259
00:11:34,810 --> 00:11:37,541
We're no longer talking about kids 
in their bedrooms behind a

260
00:11:37,541 --> 00:11:39,790
computer; we're really talking 
about terrorism.

261
00:11:40,430 --> 00:11:42,545
Yeah, the latest studies, 
French ones at least,

262
00:11:42,545 --> 00:11:43,550
speak of a real danger.

263
00:11:43,550 --> 00:11:43,734
You were just talking about 
studies. Both of us know you did

264
00:11:43,734 --> 00:11:43,950
your master's thesis in sexology on 
this subject, so you looked into

265
00:11:43,950 --> 00:11:44,138
existing publications, 
scientific articles. Can you tell

266
00:11:44,138 --> 00:11:44,326
us a bit about that journey, 
what you found, what exists, and

267
00:11:44,326 --> 00:11:44,523
where things currently stand? In 
this field that touches upon

268
00:11:44,523 --> 00:11:44,720
psychology, sociology, 
and ultimately sexology? Let's dive

269
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,551
into it. Toi, tu as fait ton 
travail de fin d'études en

270
00:11:46,551 --> 00:11:48,985
sexologie sur le sujet, 
donc tu as cherché les publications

271
00:11:48,985 --> 00:11:51,522
qui existent, les articles 
scientifiques. Tu peux nous en

272
00:11:51,522 --> 00:11:53,721
parler un peu ce chemin, 
ce que tu as trouvé,

273
00:11:53,721 --> 00:11:56,347
ce qui existe, où est-ce qu'on en 
est actuellement?

274
00:11:56,390 --> 00:11:59,579
Dans le domaine qui touche à la 
fois à la psychologie et la

275
00:11:59,579 --> 00:12:01,950
sociologie et à la sexologie 
finalement?

276
00:12:01,950 --> 00:12:02,049
Yes, of course. I struggled a bit 
to find the link between sexology

277
00:12:02,049 --> 00:12:02,112
and masculinism. There are many 
sociological and political studies

278
00:12:02,112 --> 00:12:02,166
that are very interesting, 
and frightening at the same time.

279
00:12:02,166 --> 00:12:02,226
But while I was actually writing 
this study, one practically fell

280
00:12:02,226 --> 00:12:02,280
from the sky, conducted by 
OpinionWay for Sidaction, which

281
00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:02,343
came out in December 2025—a study 
focused on the French population.

282
00:12:02,343 --> 00:12:02,392
It looked at young men, 
and the figures are alarming; I

283
00:12:02,392 --> 00:12:02,449
encourage everyone to check out 
this study, it sparked a lot of

284
00:12:02,449 --> 00:12:02,508
discussion on social media. In 
fact, there is a kind of backlash

285
00:12:02,508 --> 00:12:02,557
against condom use, 
for instance, with the idea that it

286
00:12:02,557 --> 00:12:02,612
emasculates men. In that very 
study, one in four men responded

287
00:12:02,612 --> 00:12:02,670
that they feel more powerful if 
they don't use a condom. And well,

288
00:12:02,670 --> 00:12:02,725
you know yourself as a sexologist 
the importance of condoms,

289
00:12:02,725 --> 00:12:02,789
especially among young people who 
still have little experience and

290
00:12:02,789 --> 00:12:03,223
little knowledge about their 
bodies, sexuality, and so on. j'ai

291
00:12:03,223 --> 00:12:07,990
un peu galéré à trouver le lien 
entre sexologie et masculinisme.

292
00:12:08,030 --> 00:12:10,040
Il y a beaucoup d'études 
sociologiques,

293
00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,108
politiques qui sont très 
intéressantes,

294
00:12:12,108 --> 00:12:13,349
et effrayantes à la fois.

295
00:12:13,350 --> 00:12:16,950
Mais pendant que je rédigeais 
justement cette étude,

296
00:12:16,950 --> 00:12:19,430
il y a une étude qui est tombée du 
ciel,

297
00:12:19,430 --> 00:12:22,310
qui s'appelle OpinionWay pour 
Sidaction,

298
00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:26,790
qui est sortie en décembre 2025, 
qui est une étude sur les Français.

299
00:12:26,870 --> 00:12:29,536
Les jeunes garçons et les chiffres 
sont affolants,

300
00:12:29,536 --> 00:12:31,582
je vous invite à aller voir cette 
étude,

301
00:12:31,582 --> 00:12:34,310
elle a beaucoup fait parler sur les 
réseaux sociaux.

302
00:12:34,350 --> 00:12:37,372
En fait, il y a un retour un petit 
peu de l'usage du préservatif par

303
00:12:37,372 --> 00:12:39,830
exemple, comme quoi ça a 
déviriliserait les hommes.

304
00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:43,202
Dans cette étude justement, 
il y a un homme sur quatre qui

305
00:12:43,202 --> 00:12:46,705
répondait qu'il se sent plus 
puissant s'il n'utilise pas de

306
00:12:46,705 --> 00:12:50,226
préservatif. Et bah, 
toi même tu le sais en tant que

307
00:12:50,226 --> 00:12:52,860
sexologue, l'importance du 
préservatif,

308
00:12:52,860 --> 00:12:56,960
notamment chez les jeunes qui ont 
encore peu d'expérience et peu de

309
00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,009
connaissance avec leur corps, la

310
00:12:59,009 --> 00:13:00,030
sexualité, etc.

311
00:13:00,030 --> 00:13:00,642
Yeah, especially since afterwards 
there are pregnancy risks. I mean,

312
00:13:00,642 --> 00:13:00,875
not just STIs often, 
but pregnancy and potential

313
00:13:00,875 --> 00:13:01,202
abortions, basically everything 
that follows. Young people know so

314
00:13:01,202 --> 00:13:01,523
little about fertility. We realize 
this as sexologists too, when we

315
00:13:01,523 --> 00:13:01,812
get feedback from the field, 
we think, "Whoa, wait, what game

316
00:13:01,812 --> 00:13:02,081
are you playing here, 
really? Do you truly understand the

317
00:13:02,081 --> 00:13:02,392
impact of your actions and the 
consequences they can have?" There

318
00:13:02,392 --> 00:13:02,707
really is a simplification of the 
discourse, focused solely on one

319
00:13:02,707 --> 00:13:03,004
point of view, an urge to believe 
in their masculine power while

320
00:13:03,004 --> 00:13:03,331
forgetting the relationship and the 
repercussions it entails—it's

321
00:13:03,331 --> 00:13:05,049
baffling, isn't it! Enfin, 
pas le d'MST souvent, mais de

322
00:13:05,049 --> 00:13:06,891
grossesse et d'avortements 
potentiels,

323
00:13:06,891 --> 00:13:08,470
enfin tout ce qui se passe 
derrière.

324
00:13:08,470 --> 00:13:10,870
Les jeunes connaissent tellement 
peu la fertilité.

325
00:13:10,950 --> 00:13:13,406
On s'en rend compte aussi en tant 
que sexologue, que quand on a du

326
00:13:13,406 --> 00:13:15,399
retour du terrain, 
on se dit "Waouh, attends, à quoi

327
00:13:15,399 --> 00:13:18,054
vous jouez là en fait? Est-ce que 
vous comprenez vraiment l'impact de

328
00:13:18,054 --> 00:13:20,614
vos actes sur les conséquences que 
ça peut avoir quoi?". Il y a

329
00:13:20,614 --> 00:13:22,982
vraiment une simplification du 
discours,

330
00:13:22,982 --> 00:13:25,219
focalisé uniquement sur un point de 
vue,

331
00:13:25,219 --> 00:13:28,904
un intérêt de croire à leur force 
masculine en oubliant la relation

332
00:13:28,904 --> 00:13:31,990
et les impacts que ça a derrière, 
c'est surprenant hein!

333
00:13:32,030 --> 00:13:34,830
Quick sex-ed moment: 
use condoms.

334
00:13:35,850 --> 00:13:38,392
Because plus, a man is fertile, 
well,

335
00:13:38,392 --> 00:13:42,162
all the time—there are no cycles 
where he's infertile,

336
00:13:42,162 --> 00:13:44,290
so really, use contraception.

337
00:13:44,570 --> 00:13:49,561
And while we're on the subject, 
25% of men believe women should

338
00:13:49,561 --> 00:13:54,457
respect their choice not to wear 
condoms because they feel it

339
00:13:54,457 --> 00:13:56,370
weakens their manhood.

340
00:13:56,490 --> 00:13:59,246
So, on one hand you're saying this 
is a topic that is already very

341
00:13:59,246 --> 00:14:01,898
well-documented, but since society 
is actually in constant

342
00:14:01,898 --> 00:14:04,706
renewal—kind of like the cells in 
the human body that constantly

343
00:14:04,706 --> 00:14:07,202
regenerate, you know, 
cartilage renews every six months

344
00:14:07,202 --> 00:14:09,594
without us realizing it, 
but society is the same way—we

345
00:14:09,594 --> 00:14:12,246
always need to update our 
understanding of what's unfolding

346
00:14:12,246 --> 00:14:15,210
right before our eyes with today's 
youth that we might not be seeing.

347
00:14:15,210 --> 00:14:17,601
We can't look at them through the 
lens of 30 years ago;

348
00:14:17,601 --> 00:14:18,850
we really have to say, 
"Wow!

349
00:14:18,890 --> 00:14:20,970
What are they exposed to today?

350
00:14:21,010 --> 00:14:23,730
And so we'll also include links to 
the articles in the post."

351
00:14:23,770 --> 00:14:25,250
Yeah, totally, it's needed.

352
00:14:25,250 --> 00:14:28,037
I encourage you to read all of that 
to better understand

353
00:14:28,037 --> 00:14:29,370
what's going on there too.

354
00:14:29,410 --> 00:14:31,949
There are certainly also 
professionals listening to us who

355
00:14:31,949 --> 00:14:34,790
work with young people and who will 
be interested in learning more.

356
00:14:34,830 --> 00:14:37,380
So, if we can give them some 
avenues to dig into the subject and

357
00:14:37,380 --> 00:14:39,830
understand it for themselves, 
that would be really great.

358
00:14:39,870 --> 00:14:42,676
Yes, absolutely! And also don't 
hesitate to contact me—I mean,

359
00:14:42,676 --> 00:14:44,270
I'm really open to discussing it.

360
00:14:44,630 --> 00:14:46,789
Oh, thank you Fanny, 
that's super kind!

361
00:14:46,830 --> 00:14:49,796
It's true that people who really 
dig deep and become somewhat

362
00:14:49,796 --> 00:14:52,934
specialized in the subject—there 
might not be that many either,

363
00:14:52,934 --> 00:14:54,270
so it's nice of you to offer.

364
00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:56,632
Also, in your opinion, 
what are the profiles of the young

365
00:14:56,632 --> 00:14:59,321
people who might be the most 
vulnerable? Because zero risk

366
00:14:59,321 --> 00:15:00,550
doesn't exist either.

367
00:15:00,590 --> 00:15:05,021
How might you enlighten parents, 
based on what you've learned about

368
00:15:05,021 --> 00:15:07,430
the youth most exposed to this 
issue?

369
00:15:07,550 --> 00:15:11,152
That's a very good question and I 
think it's important to answer it;

370
00:15:11,152 --> 00:15:13,532
specifically, there's no typical 
profile,

371
00:15:13,532 --> 00:15:16,810
I'd say. It's a discussion I was 
able to explore further with a

372
00:15:16,810 --> 00:15:20,027
psychologist, actually, 
who meets with radicalized young

373
00:15:20,027 --> 00:15:23,308
people, whether it's the beginning 
of radicalization or the

374
00:15:23,308 --> 00:15:24,788
end—meaning, acting on it.

375
00:15:24,830 --> 00:15:28,575
Often, it's going to be a young man 
who might be bullied at school,

376
00:15:28,575 --> 00:15:30,795
it can often be insults about his 
body,

377
00:15:30,795 --> 00:15:33,291
just a young man searching for an 
identity,

378
00:15:33,291 --> 00:15:34,330
or an upbringing.

379
00:15:34,330 --> 00:15:37,879
Where the teen's worth is tied to 
academic performance while no

380
00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:40,222
attention is paid to their mental 
health,

381
00:15:40,222 --> 00:15:41,290
a bit of isolation.

382
00:15:41,290 --> 00:15:43,502
But really, I mean, 
whether a kid is a girl or a boy,

383
00:15:43,502 --> 00:15:46,253
during adolescence there are many 
young people who feel a bit

384
00:15:46,253 --> 00:15:47,490
isolated, misunderstood.

385
00:15:47,490 --> 00:15:50,570
In the end, all it takes is just 
one video on social media.

386
00:15:50,730 --> 00:15:53,857
So if I can add a quick word on 
prevention,

387
00:15:53,857 --> 00:15:56,890
just talk about it with teens, 
you know.

388
00:15:57,130 --> 00:16:00,410
Like, this is what masculinism is, 
have you ever seen something come

389
00:16:00,410 --> 00:16:02,770
up on social media? Does that 
resonate with you?

390
00:16:02,770 --> 00:16:05,398
Do you talk about it in the 
schoolyard? Because I've worked

391
00:16:05,398 --> 00:16:08,071
with young people too, 
and I find there's really a

392
00:16:08,071 --> 00:16:10,288
regression regarding gender 
equality,

393
00:16:10,288 --> 00:16:13,221
in what they say at least, 
because they're still in the

394
00:16:13,221 --> 00:16:14,329
schoolyard, but...

395
00:16:14,490 --> 00:16:15,650
Yeah, it's scary.

396
00:16:15,770 --> 00:16:17,725
"If you don't finish top of the 
class,

397
00:16:17,725 --> 00:16:19,932
well, you're gay," as if it were an 
insult,

398
00:16:19,932 --> 00:16:22,218
you know, "Oh, you're a little 
wimp." I mean,

399
00:16:22,218 --> 00:16:24,760
it's... I don't think that's 
anything new, but there really is a

400
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,530
bit of machismo making a comeback 
after all.

401
00:16:26,570 --> 00:16:27,610
And coming back in full force.

402
00:16:27,850 --> 00:16:30,167
Yeah, and coming back in full 
force. And in fact, it has always

403
00:16:30,167 --> 00:16:31,986
existed—in the West, 
I mean, of course;

404
00:16:31,986 --> 00:16:35,019
for everything I've said overall, 
I'm only talking about the West

405
00:16:35,019 --> 00:16:37,446
since I don't have experience with 
the entire world,

406
00:16:37,446 --> 00:16:40,028
not yet. And yes, 
it's heightened,

407
00:16:40,028 --> 00:16:43,304
especially today, 
because there's social media and

408
00:16:43,304 --> 00:16:46,951
people who use it very well, 
who are genuinely articulate,

409
00:16:46,951 --> 00:16:48,589
skilled at video editing.

410
00:16:48,710 --> 00:16:51,027
I mean, it's really very—(Olivier 
Mageren:

411
00:16:51,027 --> 00:16:54,030
Yeah)—you believe their narrative, 
it's very well made.

412
00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:57,144
Yeah. And especially since there 
are a lot of viral videos that

413
00:16:57,144 --> 00:16:59,356
become even more so, 
and are amplified by AI or other

414
00:16:59,356 --> 00:17:02,125
tools. Or on top of that, 
AI instantly translates someone who

415
00:17:02,125 --> 00:17:04,744
might be speaking English, 
and in the end the young person

416
00:17:04,744 --> 00:17:07,744
hears French, and ultimately ends 
up being exposed to everything

417
00:17:07,744 --> 00:17:09,270
happening in Texas, 
for example.

418
00:17:09,270 --> 00:17:11,853
Because in the end, 
AI translates automatically and the

419
00:17:11,853 --> 00:17:13,830
algorithms promote the hype and the 
reach.

420
00:17:13,830 --> 00:17:16,545
And these people have a community, 
so they get paid too;

421
00:17:16,545 --> 00:17:19,733
they often receive benefits from 
the platforms for having viral

422
00:17:19,733 --> 00:17:23,816
videos. And could you—so parents 
aren't naive either—explain a bit

423
00:17:23,816 --> 00:17:27,319
of what you've discovered and 
understood regarding the risks and

424
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:30,568
young people's exposure to 
masculinist discourse on social

425
00:17:30,568 --> 00:17:33,803
media? Because as adults, 
since the algorithms understand

426
00:17:33,803 --> 00:17:35,230
us—or rather, analyze us.

427
00:17:35,430 --> 00:17:37,302
You know, I'm a cisgender white 
male,

428
00:17:37,302 --> 00:17:39,175
turning 46 soon, 
well, with two kids,

429
00:17:39,175 --> 00:17:41,108
so I'm going to get different 
content.

430
00:17:41,110 --> 00:17:45,115
We can't imagine what a young 
person is exposed to since we don't

431
00:17:45,115 --> 00:17:46,550
have the same profile.

432
00:17:46,590 --> 00:17:49,310
So we don't get the same output 
from the algorithm.

433
00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:51,073
What have you learned about the 
algorithm and

434
00:17:51,073 --> 00:17:52,150
how young people are exposed?

435
00:17:52,190 --> 00:17:54,270
That's the whole issue with the 
algorithm.

436
00:17:54,270 --> 00:17:58,652
The studies I found show that when 
you create a young boy's profile,

437
00:17:58,652 --> 00:18:01,470
you're bound to be exposed to this 
content.

438
00:18:01,470 --> 00:18:04,741
And all it takes is watching just 
one to then stumble upon several

439
00:18:04,741 --> 00:18:06,741
more, and it becomes a snowball 
effect,

440
00:18:06,741 --> 00:18:09,769
it's not... For example, 
you could watch a cookie recipe on

441
00:18:09,769 --> 00:18:13,181
whatever social media platform and 
you'll end up with ten of them,

442
00:18:13,181 --> 00:18:15,973
that's the algorithm, 
and the more interest you show,

443
00:18:15,973 --> 00:18:18,702
the more that's all you see, 
and it's a vicious cycle.

444
00:18:18,750 --> 00:18:21,326
Yeah, you were telling me when we 
were preparing this podcast that in

445
00:18:21,326 --> 00:18:23,723
the end, even if the young person 
isn't searching for it, within

446
00:18:23,723 --> 00:18:25,390
seconds they can be exposed to this 
content.

447
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:28,695
That's right, yes. There are women 
and men who created fake profiles

448
00:18:28,695 --> 00:18:32,011
specifically to test this and 
calculate the time it takes for

449
00:18:32,011 --> 00:18:33,766
masculinist content to appear.

450
00:18:33,770 --> 00:18:36,504
And this masculinist content can be 
hidden too;

451
00:18:36,504 --> 00:18:39,785
as I was saying earlier, 
it comes through very simple life

452
00:18:39,785 --> 00:18:41,973
advice, people who are coaches, 
yeah:

453
00:18:41,973 --> 00:18:44,317
dating coaches. It could be a 
fitness coach,

454
00:18:44,317 --> 00:18:47,010
it could really come through 
something else entirely.

455
00:18:47,050 --> 00:18:49,387
And in my study, 
a man was telling me that he didn't

456
00:18:49,387 --> 00:18:52,522
have an exact memory of when he 
started getting into this content,

457
00:18:52,522 --> 00:18:53,605
but he thinks it was...

458
00:18:53,605 --> 00:18:56,227
Well, he's someone who watches a 
lot of YouTube videos,

459
00:18:56,227 --> 00:18:58,564
he became interested in fitness, 
bodybuilding,

460
00:18:58,564 --> 00:19:00,502
even though he didn't necessarily 
do it,

461
00:19:00,502 --> 00:19:02,782
but... And actually, 
there was a narrative that

462
00:19:02,782 --> 00:19:04,948
resonated with him, 
along the lines of 'Okay,

463
00:19:04,948 --> 00:19:05,970
I want to feel better.

464
00:19:06,010 --> 00:19:09,034
I'm being told that I'll be a 
better man. And my life philosophy

465
00:19:09,034 --> 00:19:11,769
is to become a better man, 
so why not?'.

466
00:19:11,810 --> 00:19:15,165
Does it involve going through that? 
Through being upright,

467
00:19:15,165 --> 00:19:18,976
manly, muscular? He happened to be 
a guy who had relationship

468
00:19:18,976 --> 00:19:20,009
difficulties too.

469
00:19:20,050 --> 00:19:23,655
The first time he gave a cheek kiss 
to a girl his age,

470
00:19:23,655 --> 00:19:26,490
he was in ninth grade, 
so he was fifteen,

471
00:19:26,490 --> 00:19:28,550
outside of his family I mean.

472
00:19:28,590 --> 00:19:31,658
Yeah, it's as if there was 
intimidation and,

473
00:19:31,658 --> 00:19:35,057
as a result, well, 
you look for advice on YouTube,

474
00:19:35,057 --> 00:19:38,950
in books, and you never know what 
you might stumble upon.

475
00:19:39,030 --> 00:19:41,694
It's true that, as an EVRAS 
educator for seven years,

476
00:19:41,694 --> 00:19:43,693
I meet a lot of young people aged 
11 to 18,

477
00:19:43,693 --> 00:19:47,085
and parents in my opinion don't 
realize how—sometimes parents are

478
00:19:47,085 --> 00:19:49,628
naive, saying 'My child isn't 
interested in that,

479
00:19:49,628 --> 00:19:52,535
whether they're a girl or a boy, 
sexuality or this or that,

480
00:19:52,535 --> 00:19:53,867
or sometimes we talk...'.

481
00:19:53,867 --> 00:19:57,077
Oh yeah, it's crazy to see how 
preoccupied young people are with

482
00:19:57,077 --> 00:19:59,741
love when they're twelve, 
but in fact it's more about

483
00:19:59,741 --> 00:20:02,270
attraction, differences, 
meeting other people.

484
00:20:02,310 --> 00:20:04,323
It's not capital-L Love, 
but rather,

485
00:20:04,323 --> 00:20:06,271
I put more of a nuance on 
attraction,

486
00:20:06,271 --> 00:20:09,646
appeal, desire, and sexuality, 
and when we receive questions

487
00:20:09,646 --> 00:20:12,892
freely, we realize that it's 
actually very present in their

488
00:20:12,892 --> 00:20:16,070
minds, but around their families 
they won't say anything.

489
00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:18,461
They'll say 'Oh no, 
not my child, they're only twelve,

490
00:20:18,461 --> 00:20:20,190
they're not thinking about any of 
that!'.

491
00:20:21,750 --> 00:20:22,850
Oh yeah, you think so?

492
00:20:23,250 --> 00:20:24,934
(Olivier Mageren: 
Yeah) I don't know,

493
00:20:24,934 --> 00:20:27,090
I'm not a parent so I don't have 
that perspective.

494
00:20:27,090 --> 00:20:28,954
They don't show the same face at 
home as they do at school, in any

495
00:20:28,954 --> 00:20:30,531
case (Fanny Galoré: 
Yeah, that's for sure), in their

496
00:20:30,531 --> 00:20:31,570
environment, with their friends.

497
00:20:31,610 --> 00:20:34,530
Well yeah, there are sex hormones, 
inevitably.

498
00:20:34,530 --> 00:20:38,494
You see your body changing, 
you see the older kids falling in

499
00:20:38,494 --> 00:20:41,308
love. Well, you yourself start 
having desires,

500
00:20:41,308 --> 00:20:42,450
curiosity above all.

501
00:20:42,490 --> 00:20:45,153
What is love? What is this feeling 
in my heart,

502
00:20:45,153 --> 00:20:48,010
in my stomach? What is this 
sexuality that no one talks about?

503
00:20:48,370 --> 00:20:51,090
Something is being hidden from me 
here, something is going on, and I

504
00:20:51,090 --> 00:20:53,150
want to find out. And why not on 
social media,

505
00:20:53,150 --> 00:20:54,890
where everything is written down?

506
00:20:55,130 --> 00:20:57,209
Laughter - Everything and its exact 
opposite, too.

507
00:20:57,490 --> 00:20:59,597
Yeah, and like you say, 
they are confronted with changes to

508
00:20:59,597 --> 00:21:01,833
their own body and psychology, 
but they are also exposed to the

509
00:21:01,833 --> 00:21:04,528
changes in everyone else's body 
around them, you know. Since

510
00:21:04,528 --> 00:21:06,499
schools often have, 
let's say, well,

511
00:21:06,499 --> 00:21:09,042
classes where all the students are 
the same age,

512
00:21:09,042 --> 00:21:12,538
they are exposed with—they are even 
more exposed to the situation

513
00:21:12,538 --> 00:21:14,570
because, in fact, 
it's concentrated.

514
00:21:14,610 --> 00:21:17,935
In real life, a thirteen-year-old 
child might be surrounded by an

515
00:21:17,935 --> 00:21:20,111
eight, a fifteen, 
and a 20-year-old child,

516
00:21:20,111 --> 00:21:23,012
whereas at school it's a 
concentration of kids who are all

517
00:21:23,012 --> 00:21:26,216
the same age, so ultimately they 
all potentially share the same

518
00:21:26,216 --> 00:21:28,514
challenges, difficulties, 
life realities.

519
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,609
So being exposed to all these young 
people going through this

520
00:21:31,609 --> 00:21:33,676
transformation is a huge 
amplification.

521
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,260
Children can compare themselves all 
the more, especially seeing others

522
00:21:36,260 --> 00:21:38,246
change and thinking, 
"Hey, me too," and these questions

523
00:21:38,246 --> 00:21:40,822
are very present. And that brings 
me right to the topic:

524
00:21:40,822 --> 00:21:42,969
as a sexologist, 
what is your sexological

525
00:21:42,969 --> 00:21:45,240
perspective on masculinism and 
sexuality?

526
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,640
What would you like to say about 
that?

527
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,708
It reminds me of the topic: 
"Are straight people doing okay?",

528
00:21:51,708 --> 00:21:55,245
I'm not sure. I think that, 
yes, a gap is starting to form

529
00:21:55,245 --> 00:21:56,680
between men and women.

530
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,070
Of course, I'm talking about 
heterosexuality,

531
00:21:59,070 --> 00:22:03,182
as always. Well yeah, 
expectations feel a bit different,

532
00:22:03,182 --> 00:22:07,000
like: I'm not being heard, 
my desires aren't being heard.

533
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,084
My perspective as a sexologist is 
just come as you want to be—let

534
00:22:11,084 --> 00:22:13,501
loose, ask, dare, 
dare to be yourself,

535
00:22:13,501 --> 00:22:17,355
dare to ask for what you want, 
because it creates divides like

536
00:22:17,355 --> 00:22:20,602
"Okay, well to be liked, 
I have to be like this or like

537
00:22:20,602 --> 00:22:23,959
that." No, there is no framework, 
there is no norm;

538
00:22:23,959 --> 00:22:26,660
feel free to create your own norm, 
and...

539
00:22:26,860 --> 00:22:30,611
By being yourself you'll truly be 
the most beautiful person,

540
00:22:30,611 --> 00:22:33,848
and that's precisely when you will 
shine and attract

541
00:22:33,848 --> 00:22:35,020
someone, for sure.

542
00:22:36,060 --> 00:22:38,050
Yeah. Young people need to 
understand, to have reference

543
00:22:38,050 --> 00:22:40,720
points. And in this masculinist 
discourse, well, there's "Women are

544
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,866
actually like this, 
women are—" (Fanny Galoré: Yeah),

545
00:22:42,866 --> 00:22:45,433
it's as if there were one template 
for women, that they're all like

546
00:22:45,433 --> 00:22:47,860
that, and for those who aren't, 
they'll get there, or deep down

547
00:22:47,860 --> 00:22:50,426
they still have that in them. And 
it's funny, yesterday we were

548
00:22:50,426 --> 00:22:52,936
taking part in a men-women 
discussion group where this very

549
00:22:52,936 --> 00:22:55,498
point came up: actually, 
the diversity of profiles among men

550
00:22:55,498 --> 00:22:56,500
and women, there are...

551
00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:58,900
No two men and no two women are 
alike.

552
00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:01,793
But in this discourse, 
you get the impression that there's

553
00:23:01,793 --> 00:23:05,217
almost a blueprint for femininity, 
as if there were a formula from man

554
00:23:05,217 --> 00:23:06,456
to woman, you know, 
to...

555
00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:07,980
It really makes you wonder, 
though.

556
00:23:08,020 --> 00:23:10,676
It's true that in the discourse, 
that's what I noticed too. It's as

557
00:23:10,676 --> 00:23:14,140
if the woman were even an object, 
without even talking about

558
00:23:14,140 --> 00:23:16,713
femininity. And I also want to 
broaden the topic to men,

559
00:23:16,713 --> 00:23:20,673
right? All men are very different, 
and even each masculinist group is

560
00:23:20,673 --> 00:23:23,827
very different. But, 
yeah, when I discussed it with a

561
00:23:23,827 --> 00:23:26,181
specialist psychologist, 
he told me,

562
00:23:26,181 --> 00:23:28,682
"These men have a view of women, 
a single,

563
00:23:28,682 --> 00:23:32,052
very specific, very stereotyped 
view of women." Yeah,

564
00:23:32,052 --> 00:23:35,110
it's as if they were aiming for a 
subject that didn't exist,

565
00:23:35,110 --> 00:23:37,980
a goal of seducing someone who 
actually doesn't exist.

566
00:23:38,020 --> 00:23:40,398
So inevitably, you're not going to 
attract anyone;

567
00:23:40,398 --> 00:23:42,608
hurting yourself, 
hurting yourself that much,

568
00:23:42,608 --> 00:23:44,100
isn't going to do you any favors.

569
00:23:44,140 --> 00:23:48,559
That's a lot of effort to match a 
pseudo-ideal of a person's profile

570
00:23:48,559 --> 00:23:49,900
that doesn't exist.

571
00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:50,860
Absolutely.

572
00:23:50,860 --> 00:23:51,860
Yes.

573
00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:54,312
It's becoming someone who doesn't 
exist,

574
00:23:54,312 --> 00:23:57,218
yourself, to seduce someone who 
doesn't exist either.

575
00:23:57,500 --> 00:23:59,939
Just be yourself, 
and you'll be so much better off.

576
00:24:00,460 --> 00:24:03,122
Yeah. It's crazy because at the 
same time we see others through a

577
00:24:03,122 --> 00:24:06,034
certain filter and we don't see who 
the authentic person in front of us

578
00:24:06,034 --> 00:24:07,791
really is; if we're talking about a 
woman,

579
00:24:07,791 --> 00:24:10,354
we see her through the interpretive 
filters of masculinism,

580
00:24:10,354 --> 00:24:13,015
and we ourselves are no longer 
authentic because we conform to a

581
00:24:13,015 --> 00:24:15,526
model without ultimately listening 
to ourselves—who I am,

582
00:24:15,526 --> 00:24:17,383
how I am developing, 
how I am also Otherness,

583
00:24:17,383 --> 00:24:18,840
the fact that we are all different?

584
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,827
Ultimately, we're in a game of 
masks where we're actually not in

585
00:24:21,827 --> 00:24:24,718
touch authentically with ourselves 
or with the other person.

586
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,546
There really is, 
and the young person doesn't

587
00:24:26,546 --> 00:24:29,964
realize it, actually. What else is 
close to your heart to say on the

588
00:24:29,964 --> 00:24:32,983
subject? Maybe also in response to 
the first question,

589
00:24:32,983 --> 00:24:36,156
what struck you when you did all 
this work over long months?

590
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,280
Reading, listening, 
interviews, meetings?

591
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,841
So, there you have it, 
you did an ultra-thorough deep

592
00:24:42,841 --> 00:24:44,789
dive, what do you feel like saying 
that is

593
00:24:44,789 --> 00:24:46,040
close to your heart? Actually.

594
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,988
I'd say meeting a man two years ago 
who asked me if he was an "incel,"

595
00:24:50,988 --> 00:24:53,040
and I didn't know that word.

596
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,559
I said, "Wow, okay, 
would you mind telling me more?"

597
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,560
"Incel" means involuntary celibate.

598
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,398
I thought to myself, 
"Okay, can you tell me more?" And

599
00:25:02,398 --> 00:25:06,118
it was, "Am I a toxic man?

600
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:09,000
What do you think, 
you being in psychology?

601
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,910
Do you think I'm a good man?" And 
at that point,

602
00:25:11,910 --> 00:25:14,796
I found that to be a really 
difficult question,

603
00:25:14,796 --> 00:25:16,420
and why ask that question?

604
00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:19,889
What makes you doubt yourself? What 
makes you doubt whether you might

605
00:25:19,889 --> 00:25:23,569
be someone toxic? Because today, 
the word toxic is used rather

606
00:25:23,569 --> 00:25:26,620
recklessly, well, 
it doesn't mean anything anymore.

607
00:25:26,660 --> 00:25:28,938
And I think I wrote this thesis for 
that person.

608
00:25:29,180 --> 00:25:30,900
It really opened up a subject for 
me,

609
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:32,735
an awareness where I thought, 
"Shoot,

610
00:25:32,735 --> 00:25:35,601
actually behind all this hatred, 
behind all this violence,

611
00:25:35,601 --> 00:25:39,455
there is real suffering." And, 
before going to extremes,

612
00:25:39,455 --> 00:25:43,448
before street harassment, 
before acting on it,

613
00:25:43,448 --> 00:25:47,140
before attacks, just go see a 
professional.

614
00:25:47,140 --> 00:25:49,420
You have doubts about who you are?

615
00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:52,483
But that's everyone, 
that's okay, at any stage in life

616
00:25:52,483 --> 00:25:53,940
you can be faced with that.

617
00:25:53,980 --> 00:25:56,539
Turn to the right people before you 
are found.

618
00:25:56,740 --> 00:25:59,468
And as you say, we can be faced 
with this at any moment in life,

619
00:25:59,468 --> 00:26:02,633
during every transition or change, 
and the more adults are authentic

620
00:26:02,633 --> 00:26:04,487
in showing that they aren't 
infallible,

621
00:26:04,487 --> 00:26:06,287
that they also have doubts, 
questions,

622
00:26:06,287 --> 00:26:08,305
that they're vulnerable, 
that they can cry,

623
00:26:08,305 --> 00:26:11,305
that they don't know either, 
and whether we're changing careers,

624
00:26:11,305 --> 00:26:14,098
moving, whatever. Well yes, 
we certainly have to manage,

625
00:26:14,098 --> 00:26:17,325
we also have a family to reassure, 
and at the same time we are caught

626
00:26:17,325 --> 00:26:19,319
up in plenty of questions and 
doubts too,

627
00:26:19,319 --> 00:26:21,019
and that's okay. And that actually,

628
00:26:21,019 --> 00:26:22,801
yeah, they go through it during 
puberty,

629
00:26:22,801 --> 00:26:25,842
but in fact they'll experience it 
in another way with other subjects,

630
00:26:25,842 --> 00:26:28,201
whether professional, 
romantic, or something else,

631
00:26:28,201 --> 00:26:31,040
so... That's great advice, 
where adults can lead the way,

632
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,980
encourage young people to talk 
about themselves and seek support.

633
00:26:34,020 --> 00:26:36,386
But I think adults can also without 
realizing it,

634
00:26:36,386 --> 00:26:38,924
by taking care of themselves in 
this vulnerability,

635
00:26:38,924 --> 00:26:41,868
subconsciously help society and the 
young people they meet,

636
00:26:41,868 --> 00:26:43,946
who are around them, whether they 
are their

637
00:26:43,946 --> 00:26:45,100
children or other kids.

638
00:26:45,140 --> 00:26:47,540
And yes, dare to speak about your 
vulnerability.

639
00:26:47,580 --> 00:26:50,340
We are all vulnerable at some point 
and.

640
00:26:50,540 --> 00:26:52,484
And it feels good to say to 
yourself,

641
00:26:52,484 --> 00:26:54,363
"Okay, well right now I feel, 
yeah,

642
00:26:54,363 --> 00:26:56,565
I'm questioning things a bit, 
I feel sad,

643
00:26:56,565 --> 00:26:59,739
I feel," whatever it is, 
just talk about it with someone you

644
00:26:59,739 --> 00:27:02,136
trust, not necessarily always a 
therapist,

645
00:27:02,136 --> 00:27:04,985
but someone in your circle, 
and people will help you,

646
00:27:04,985 --> 00:27:07,094
for sure. Turn to the right people,

647
00:27:07,094 --> 00:27:09,980
if needed, Olivier and I will be 
here to listen,

648
00:27:09,980 --> 00:27:12,462
with pleasure. Yeah, 
it's a general message,

649
00:27:12,462 --> 00:27:14,100
dare to talk about your 
vulnerability.

650
00:27:14,140 --> 00:27:16,145
As they say, there is one constant 
in life,

651
00:27:16,145 --> 00:27:19,296
and that's change. So you can be 
sure that maybe every day there

652
00:27:19,296 --> 00:27:20,940
will be something new to look at.

653
00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:23,123
And then to think, 
maybe, "Oh look,

654
00:27:23,123 --> 00:27:26,580
I thought I was straight and now I 
feel attracted to a man or a woman.

655
00:27:27,020 --> 00:27:29,394
Actually, it creates doubt: 
who am I?". It calls everything

656
00:27:29,394 --> 00:27:31,643
into question, or else, 
"I've been doing the same job for

657
00:27:31,643 --> 00:27:33,940
fifteen years, but I want to 
change, but ah shoot, who am I?

658
00:27:33,980 --> 00:27:36,062
What do I become, 
really? If I change careers, which

659
00:27:36,062 --> 00:27:39,384
company? What position?". I mean, 
we are constantly faced with this,

660
00:27:39,384 --> 00:27:42,453
and it's true that when it touches 
on our human identity,

661
00:27:42,453 --> 00:27:45,587
specifically our gender, 
it seems even more delicate and

662
00:27:45,587 --> 00:27:47,436
taboo. Maybe we dare speak about it 
less,

663
00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:49,963
because publicly it is harder to 
talk about who we truly are;

664
00:27:49,963 --> 00:27:52,946
the vulnerability is greater than 
talking about something external,

665
00:27:52,946 --> 00:27:55,420
like saying, "What do I do for a 
living?" when you're older.

666
00:27:55,460 --> 00:27:59,052
Here, we're looking at a young 
person building themselves up,

667
00:27:59,052 --> 00:28:02,298
exposed to a vast world, 
talking about who they feel they

668
00:28:02,298 --> 00:28:04,852
are on the inside, 
their idea of what a man is,

669
00:28:04,852 --> 00:28:06,856
a woman, lovers, 
or whatever else.

670
00:28:06,900 --> 00:28:08,360
It's no small thing, 
I think.

671
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:09,999
Yeah, and besides, 
who cares.

672
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,520
If you feel like a boy today, 
you feel like a boy.

673
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,099
If tomorrow you feel like a woman, 
well, that's okay. Or if you don't

674
00:28:15,099 --> 00:28:16,933
feel like anything at all, 
that's fine too. I mean, dare to

675
00:28:16,933 --> 00:28:19,657
change careers, dare to—well, 
if people don't support you,

676
00:28:19,657 --> 00:28:21,617
if the people around you don't 
support you,

677
00:28:21,617 --> 00:28:23,195
then they're not the right people.

678
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,402
Do it for yourself, 
give yourself the gift of... The

679
00:28:25,402 --> 00:28:28,111
truth is, you will spend your 
entire life with the same body,

680
00:28:28,111 --> 00:28:30,494
with the same soul, 
you will always be with yourself,

681
00:28:30,494 --> 00:28:32,928
so do yourself a favor by daring to 
be who you want to be,

682
00:28:32,928 --> 00:28:34,280
whether it fluctuates or not.

683
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,358
Show the world who you are, 
be yourself.

684
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,646
Yeah, exactly, and you'll genuinely 
feel lighter rather than following

685
00:28:39,646 --> 00:28:41,560
a mold that extracts an extra toll 
from you.

686
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,817
Yeah. And which creates a lot of 
heaviness and sadness,

687
00:28:44,817 --> 00:28:46,799
as you say, an effort to move away 
from oneself.

688
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,272
To come back to it later, 
but there you have it,

689
00:28:49,272 --> 00:28:52,918
we're gradually nearing the end of 
the podcast because time flies.

690
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,874
Do you have any advice for parents,

691
00:28:54,874 --> 00:28:56,240
for example? I don't know.

692
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,345
Yeah, it's going to be the same 
advice as before:

693
00:28:58,345 --> 00:29:00,720
talk about it, talk about this, 
talk about everything.

694
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,480
Ask the question really, 
sincerely about mental health.

695
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,735
Actually, every day we ask each 
other "How are you?",

696
00:29:06,735 --> 00:29:08,143
but it's not a real "How are you?",

697
00:29:08,143 --> 00:29:10,634
and that bothers me. When someone 
says to me,

698
00:29:10,634 --> 00:29:12,971
"Hi, how are you?". Well, 
it's just a polite formality, and

699
00:29:12,971 --> 00:29:15,640
sometimes I wish we would just sit 
down and ask, "Are you doing okay?

700
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,080
How are you feeling right now? What 
makes you tick?".

701
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,102
It's true that in the daily life of 
a parent,

702
00:29:20,102 --> 00:29:21,240
"Wow, what a challenge!".

703
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,960
I can only imagine the energy and 
organization it requires.

704
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,756
Yeah, if I can really give you one 
piece of advice,

705
00:29:27,756 --> 00:29:30,850
it's sit down and talk, 
freely, without expectations,

706
00:29:30,850 --> 00:29:33,000
just taking stock of things, 
you know.

707
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,733
And it's true that the parent could 
feel insecure, even unconsciously,

708
00:29:35,733 --> 00:29:38,173
thinking "Do they really want the 
true, authentic answer?", it can

709
00:29:38,173 --> 00:29:40,481
bring them back to themselves, 
to their choices, to what they do

710
00:29:40,481 --> 00:29:42,876
in life, to what they do in their 
relationship, to what they do with

711
00:29:42,876 --> 00:29:45,689
themselves, with others. And so the 
child is quite a mirror,

712
00:29:45,689 --> 00:29:48,078
so do we really want to—when you 
say "Oh yeah,

713
00:29:48,078 --> 00:29:50,919
take an interest, 
sincerely ask the question how are

714
00:29:50,919 --> 00:29:53,880
you doing"—it can be an amplifying 
mirror of who we are.

715
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,816
Yeah, it can be very hard for a 
parent to get the answer,

716
00:29:56,816 --> 00:29:58,747
but that's why we can broaden it 
too,

717
00:29:58,747 --> 00:30:01,322
any adult can ask the question to 
anyone really,

718
00:30:01,322 --> 00:30:02,480
between colleagues.

719
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:03,400
Yeah.

720
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,560
To your godson, to your 
goddaughter.

721
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:06,960
I mean, just yeah...

722
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,360
Educators, teachers can do it, 
psychologists or...

723
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,854
Anyway, lots of professionals are 
also there to say, hey, when you

724
00:30:13,854 --> 00:30:15,698
have a slight doubt, 
or even when you think everything

725
00:30:15,698 --> 00:30:18,253
is fine, hey, how are things going? 
You were talking about mental

726
00:30:18,253 --> 00:30:21,026
health, but it's true that, 
I remember a friend in Switzerland

727
00:30:21,026 --> 00:30:23,586
telling me a few years ago, 
wow, he saw a study come up about

728
00:30:23,586 --> 00:30:25,079
the fact that young people are...

729
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,434
The depression rate among young 
people is huge,

730
00:30:27,434 --> 00:30:29,814
the suicide rate is rising, 
and the rate of children on

731
00:30:29,814 --> 00:30:31,822
medication, anti-anxiety meds or 
whatever,

732
00:30:31,822 --> 00:30:33,611
is also increasing. Very young 
people,

733
00:30:33,611 --> 00:30:35,914
teenagers, you think, 
"Wow, that's crazy!". And you were

734
00:30:35,914 --> 00:30:37,867
also telling me, 
you've already mentioned it, right?

735
00:30:37,867 --> 00:30:40,125
Talking about suicide—now, 
we don't want to make things sound

736
00:30:40,125 --> 00:30:42,601
worse, but it's true that it's part 
of the spectrum of this situation

737
00:30:42,601 --> 00:30:44,815
when you look at masculinism, 
and as a parent, it really makes

738
00:30:44,815 --> 00:30:46,463
you think. Saying, 
"Wow, some young people are

739
00:30:46,463 --> 00:30:49,203
thinking about suicide." Or in any 
case, you were telling me that one

740
00:30:49,203 --> 00:30:50,993
of the young boys was saying, 
"Well yeah,

741
00:30:50,993 --> 00:30:52,680
if I picture myself without a 
partner,

742
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:53,998
I'd rather just kill myself."

743
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,980
Exactly, well, I was able to talk 
with an American kid who is

744
00:30:57,980 --> 00:30:59,360
thirteen years old.

745
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,400
So, I asked him, 
"Well, what do you mean you define

746
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,899
yourself as a masculinist? What 
does that mean to you?".

747
00:31:04,340 --> 00:31:06,242
Actually, he tells me, 
"Well, I feel ugly,

748
00:31:06,242 --> 00:31:10,122
I feel unattractive. I can clearly 
see that girls aren't interested in

749
00:31:10,122 --> 00:31:11,378
me, it hurts too much.

750
00:31:11,380 --> 00:31:14,180
I'm thinking about suicide." Right 
then I thought,

751
00:31:14,180 --> 00:31:15,540
"Wow, the leap is...

752
00:31:15,940 --> 00:31:18,100
I mean, the line is so thin.

753
00:31:18,140 --> 00:31:21,256
What do I do? I'm thousands of 
kilometers away from you,

754
00:31:21,256 --> 00:31:23,088
I want to help you, 
but..." I mean,

755
00:31:23,088 --> 00:31:26,424
between not attracting girls and 
wanting to commit suicide,

756
00:31:26,424 --> 00:31:28,779
what actually happens in between 
all that?

757
00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:31,818
And that's also what I wanted to 
research and what I still

758
00:31:31,818 --> 00:31:32,900
want to understand.

759
00:31:33,140 --> 00:31:35,328
Yeah. Through this work on 
masculinism,

760
00:31:35,328 --> 00:31:37,580
anyway—all this work of listening 
to men,

761
00:31:37,580 --> 00:31:39,511
and young men or around puberty 
too,

762
00:31:39,511 --> 00:31:42,665
but even in their 20s and 30s, 
because masculinism affects

763
00:31:42,665 --> 00:31:44,338
everyone, even 40-year-olds.

764
00:31:44,380 --> 00:31:46,404
To realize, "Wow, 
it's really about listening:

765
00:31:46,404 --> 00:31:48,579
'Hey guys, what are you 
experiencing on the inside?

766
00:31:48,580 --> 00:31:51,618
Beyond the armor, 
the virility, the social image,

767
00:31:51,618 --> 00:31:54,580
your strengths, where might your 
weaknesses be?

768
00:31:54,620 --> 00:31:56,818
Your vulnerabilities, 
what you want to hide,

769
00:31:56,818 --> 00:31:58,785
what's uncomfortable, or what makes 
you

770
00:31:58,785 --> 00:32:00,058
truly fragile, really?".

771
00:32:00,100 --> 00:32:03,215
Yeah, it wasn't easy for me, 
at least—because obviously I

772
00:32:03,215 --> 00:32:06,330
consider myself a woman, 
well, I feel like a woman—to say,

773
00:32:06,330 --> 00:32:09,704
"Okay, well, on the street, 
among the people around me and all,

774
00:32:09,704 --> 00:32:10,740
I see the violence.

775
00:32:10,740 --> 00:32:12,779
And okay, let's look beneath the 
surface.

776
00:32:12,820 --> 00:32:14,100
What's going on underneath?

777
00:32:14,140 --> 00:32:17,138
Why is there so much violence?", 
and that was the whole point.

778
00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:19,443
And that will remain society's 
challenge too, because yes, there

779
00:32:19,443 --> 00:32:21,385
is a problem, but we might as well 
go to the root of it, right?

780
00:32:21,385 --> 00:32:24,133
(Olivier Mageren: 
Yeah). And when I discussed it with

781
00:32:24,133 --> 00:32:27,457
a psychologist, he told me that 
often there were comorbid

782
00:32:27,457 --> 00:32:30,302
conditions. It can come from 
post-traumatic stress,

783
00:32:30,302 --> 00:32:33,117
from depression. And so, 
there's a need to feed it,

784
00:32:33,117 --> 00:32:36,558
and why not with masculinism, 
since you're told you'll be a

785
00:32:36,558 --> 00:32:40,140
better man. So, yeah, 
often when you treat the underlying

786
00:32:40,140 --> 00:32:42,978
condition, masculinism is no longer 
fueled,

787
00:32:42,978 --> 00:32:44,099
and that can help.

788
00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:45,802
As you say, going beneath the 
surface,

789
00:32:45,802 --> 00:32:48,620
deep into the very things we 
haven't brought to consciousness.

790
00:32:48,660 --> 00:32:50,868
And it's true that society, 
in Belgium at least, politically

791
00:32:50,868 --> 00:32:53,734
they're trying to reduce violence 
among young people. But ultimately,

792
00:32:53,734 --> 00:32:56,831
there are several paths, 
including looking into masculinism

793
00:32:56,831 --> 00:33:00,346
and seeing what it actually reveals 
about a child's background—well,

794
00:33:00,346 --> 00:33:03,741
this affinity for masculinism can 
emerge pretty much anywhere—and

795
00:33:03,741 --> 00:33:06,363
realizing that we can understand a 
lot of suffering;

796
00:33:06,363 --> 00:33:08,091
it's just a revealer of suffering,

797
00:33:08,091 --> 00:33:09,520
different kinds, as you say.

798
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,988
Yeah. Since we're still talking 
about young people,

799
00:33:12,988 --> 00:33:14,983
in EVRAS classes—which cover 
emotional,

800
00:33:14,983 --> 00:33:17,947
relational, and sexual life—there 
are some schools that also

801
00:33:17,947 --> 00:33:19,828
incorporate the topic of 
masculinism,

802
00:33:19,828 --> 00:33:21,480
and I think that can be a great 
tool.

803
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,566
Since today it really is a threat, 
addressing it directly as early as

804
00:33:24,566 --> 00:33:26,651
middle school is what I tried to do 
in the school

805
00:33:26,651 --> 00:33:27,719
where I worked, anyway.

806
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,640
The rhetoric is very seductive, 
you know. There's a very...

807
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,720
Absolutely. That's what's scary: 
it's very appealing.

808
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,510
You want to know more: 
"Okay, what's the secret to

809
00:33:36,510 --> 00:33:37,600
becoming a good man?

810
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,920
A charismatic man?

811
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,787
A man people look up to, you know" 
(Olivier

812
00:33:41,787 --> 00:33:42,960
Mageren: Yeah), for some.

813
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,935
It's appetizing, 
so there are nutrients behind it:

814
00:33:45,935 --> 00:33:47,080
psychological ones.

815
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,540
(Fanny Galoré: Exactly). But what 
is there that's equivalent and

816
00:33:49,540 --> 00:33:52,048
provides just as many nutrients, 
if not more—and hopefully more—in

817
00:33:52,048 --> 00:33:54,911
other models of masculinity? That's 
really important. And after that,

818
00:33:54,911 --> 00:33:56,991
I'd like to touch on the question 
of adults,

819
00:33:56,991 --> 00:33:58,898
because we've talked a lot about 
youth,

820
00:33:58,898 --> 00:34:00,920
but as you say, through algorithms 
and...

821
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,320
Would you like to say a word about 
the adult realm instead?

822
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,240
You know, let's say the over-25s, 
for example.

823
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,399
In my research, I was able to 
interview three men in France whom

824
00:34:11,399 --> 00:34:14,507
I met in person, 
who didn't consider themselves

825
00:34:14,507 --> 00:34:18,291
masculinists. Yet, 
I mean, it's a topic that permeates

826
00:34:18,291 --> 00:34:21,901
them without—well, 
my research was also about 'OK,

827
00:34:21,901 --> 00:34:25,595
you identify as straight, 
you're a man today in 2026,

828
00:34:25,595 --> 00:34:29,200
and how does masculinism impact 
your sexuality?'.

829
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,610
And by asking questions, 
yeah, well,

830
00:34:31,610 --> 00:34:35,460
I still got feedback saying that 
the female orgasm was pointless

831
00:34:35,460 --> 00:34:38,240
because it served no purpose in 
reproduction.

832
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,537
I was like, 'Really though?'. I 
mean, we're not in the Middle Ages

833
00:34:40,537 --> 00:34:42,536
anymore, we're not just trying to 
reproduce, we're trying to

834
00:34:42,536 --> 00:34:44,740
experience pleasure, 
right? I mean, to each their own

835
00:34:44,740 --> 00:34:46,159
sexuality of course, 
but—'.

836
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,800
Yeah, it really made me question a 
lot of things.

837
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,943
And it also makes me wonder why 
masculinist content aims to seduce

838
00:34:52,943 --> 00:34:55,926
a certain type of woman, 
when in fact it remains a

839
00:34:55,926 --> 00:34:57,567
competition between men.

840
00:34:57,610 --> 00:34:59,518
I feel like it's about 'pleasing 
men,

841
00:34:59,518 --> 00:35:02,658
actually', proving something to 
men—I'd say it's more about

842
00:35:02,658 --> 00:35:05,491
pleasing other men, 
feeling in competition with other

843
00:35:05,491 --> 00:35:08,324
men, rather than genuinely being 
interested in women.

844
00:35:08,370 --> 00:35:10,139
Because if you're interested in 
women,

845
00:35:10,139 --> 00:35:11,210
just ask them directly.

846
00:35:11,250 --> 00:35:15,027
Yeah, so like Michel says, 
why do they ask men for the answer

847
00:35:15,027 --> 00:35:16,569
on how to please a woman?

848
00:35:16,690 --> 00:35:18,865
It's like saying, 
'What does my neighbor like?' and

849
00:35:18,865 --> 00:35:21,547
going to ask a stranger—well, 
ask your neighbor (Fanny Galoré:

850
00:35:21,547 --> 00:35:24,066
Yeah). So, if you're asking how to 
please women,

851
00:35:24,066 --> 00:35:26,050
ask ten women, listen to ten 
answers,

852
00:35:26,050 --> 00:35:29,570
and you'll get more information 
from questioning women than from

853
00:35:29,570 --> 00:35:32,450
questioning a man who claims to 
know what 'a woman' is.

854
00:35:32,650 --> 00:35:35,068
In my experience, 
I'd say it's about belonging to a

855
00:35:35,068 --> 00:35:38,408
group; it's reassuring to identify 
with a group of men if you identify

856
00:35:38,408 --> 00:35:40,822
as a man. And maybe that's where it 
comes from.

857
00:35:40,822 --> 00:35:42,668
Then again, I'm not in their shoes,

858
00:35:42,668 --> 00:35:44,578
so I don't want to say what they 
feel,

859
00:35:44,578 --> 00:35:47,254
but it's true that when I have a 
question about men,

860
00:35:47,254 --> 00:35:50,820
well, it's also nice to have my 
girlfriends' experience—you know,

861
00:35:50,820 --> 00:35:52,731
you feel like you're part of a 
group,

862
00:35:52,731 --> 00:35:54,931
you relate. But it's true that, 
quite simply,

863
00:35:54,931 --> 00:35:56,491
I mean, if you're struggling that

864
00:35:56,491 --> 00:35:57,550
much, just ask a woman!

865
00:35:58,110 --> 00:36:00,270
Well, yeah. If you're wondering 
what it's like to be a high-level

866
00:36:00,270 --> 00:36:02,430
athlete, ask a high-level athlete 
(Fanny Galoré: Exactly), and

867
00:36:02,430 --> 00:36:03,510
you'll certainly get an answer.

868
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:04,669
To the people concerned.

869
00:36:05,190 --> 00:36:07,605
Rather than, I don't know, 
your neighbor who,

870
00:36:07,605 --> 00:36:10,275
I don't know, watches soccer while 
drinking beer,

871
00:36:10,275 --> 00:36:12,183
you know, and doesn't do any 
sports,

872
00:36:12,183 --> 00:36:14,535
you think, "Well, 
yeah, his opinion exists,

873
00:36:14,535 --> 00:36:18,348
but maybe you'll get more concrete 
answers from the person concerned,"

874
00:36:18,348 --> 00:36:20,604
so talk to women. Maybe there's 
also a fear of talking to women or

875
00:36:20,604 --> 00:36:23,017
approaching women (Fanny Galoré: 
I think so, yeah). It's a lack of

876
00:36:23,017 --> 00:36:25,187
self-confidence, along with feeling 
inept,

877
00:36:25,187 --> 00:36:28,327
where the masculinist side provides 
a certain self-confidence,

878
00:36:28,327 --> 00:36:29,867
as if you were competent to do it.

879
00:36:29,870 --> 00:36:31,806
It kind of fills a void of "AH, how 
do we actually

880
00:36:31,806 --> 00:36:32,948
talk to women, after all!".

881
00:36:33,070 --> 00:36:36,667
Yeah, I think so. What I've found a 
lot is that women are put on a

882
00:36:36,667 --> 00:36:40,823
pedestal; it's also kind of an 
idealization of a woman who doesn't

883
00:36:40,823 --> 00:36:42,710
exist, the feminine is scary.

884
00:36:42,750 --> 00:36:45,423
I'm talking mainly about young 
people here anyway,

885
00:36:45,423 --> 00:36:48,095
because later on, 
women drift a bit into becoming an

886
00:36:48,095 --> 00:36:50,394
object, an object of desire, 
just an object,

887
00:36:50,394 --> 00:36:53,114
really. But, yeah, 
I think there's intimidation

888
00:36:53,114 --> 00:36:54,830
stemming from the unfamiliar.

889
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:59,154
Maybe it's easier to ask a group 
that offers that to you

890
00:36:59,154 --> 00:37:00,868
directly, actually.

891
00:37:00,910 --> 00:37:02,916
And to wrap up, you maybe wanted to 
read a

892
00:37:02,916 --> 00:37:03,950
text, is that right?

893
00:37:03,990 --> 00:37:07,431
An excerpt from a book by Lysandra 
Leigh-Baker:

894
00:37:07,431 --> 00:37:12,076
"Patriarchy is a bit like a man 
standing with his boot on a woman's

895
00:37:12,076 --> 00:37:16,669
neck. Feminism is simply a woman 
asking for that boot to be removed.

896
00:37:16,750 --> 00:37:20,383
Men's rights activists consider 
removing their boot from women's

897
00:37:20,383 --> 00:37:22,590
necks to be a form of reverse 
oppression.

898
00:37:22,630 --> 00:37:26,076
Conservatives think there is no 
problem with that boot on their

899
00:37:26,076 --> 00:37:28,547
neck until women start complaining 
about it.

900
00:37:28,630 --> 00:37:30,148
And if everyone could just shut up,

901
00:37:30,148 --> 00:37:31,510
everything would be just fine.

902
00:37:31,630 --> 00:37:36,444
Some men, identifying as good men, 
take any criticism of the boot as a

903
00:37:36,444 --> 00:37:39,830
personal attack. Yes, 
but not all men wear boots.

904
00:37:40,230 --> 00:37:42,449
Male allies try to talk about the 
problem,

905
00:37:42,449 --> 00:37:45,429
but above all without offending 
those wearing the boot.

906
00:37:45,710 --> 00:37:49,080
Women who have internalized 
misogyny don't even understand why

907
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,513
women complain—they personally love 
having a boot on their neck,

908
00:37:52,513 --> 00:37:55,508
and if you complain about it, 
the problem is probably you.

909
00:37:55,550 --> 00:37:57,622
While we debate, 
while we explain,

910
00:37:57,622 --> 00:38:01,338
while we justify ourselves, 
while we wonder if we aren't being

911
00:38:01,338 --> 00:38:03,910
too radical, the boot is still on 
our neck."

912
00:38:04,190 --> 00:38:07,096
Thank you, Fanny. Well, 
listen, we always end the podcast

913
00:38:07,096 --> 00:38:09,981
with a moment of gratitude, 
and I want to say thank you for

914
00:38:09,981 --> 00:38:11,148
reading this excerpt.

915
00:38:11,150 --> 00:38:13,969
Thanks to this author for writing 
this text;

916
00:38:13,969 --> 00:38:17,930
we'll include it in the article 
text so people can read it again

917
00:38:17,930 --> 00:38:19,988
and find the book's references.

918
00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:24,152
It's a wonderful gift you gave us 
today—as you say,

919
00:38:24,152 --> 00:38:28,901
you could talk about it for hours, 
but offering us this moment to

920
00:38:28,901 --> 00:38:30,550
chat. So thank you, 
Fanny.

921
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:34,654
Thank you for inviting me to lend 
my voice with you and open up this

922
00:38:34,654 --> 00:38:39,010
topic. It's a real pleasure to talk 
about it and especially to raise

923
00:38:39,010 --> 00:38:40,709
questions and awareness.

924
00:38:40,750 --> 00:38:42,789
And also thanks to Michel.

925
00:38:42,790 --> 00:38:43,910
Thank you Michel - 
[Laughs].

926
00:38:44,990 --> 00:38:47,333
Both for your thoughts during this 
podcast,

927
00:38:47,333 --> 00:38:50,563
you're always, let's say, 
we could say behind the scenes like

928
00:38:50,563 --> 00:38:52,590
that doing technical backstage 
work,

929
00:38:52,590 --> 00:38:56,199
but at the same time this podcast 
wouldn't exist without The Podcast

930
00:38:56,199 --> 00:38:58,099
Factory Org, which is still, 
for me,

931
00:38:58,099 --> 00:39:00,569
one of the best podcast producers 
in the world,

932
00:39:00,569 --> 00:39:03,813
I'm sure of it. I'm generalizing, 
but I'm sure you're among the top

933
00:39:03,813 --> 00:39:06,007
ten best because you put so much 
heart into it.

934
00:39:06,090 --> 00:39:08,901
You also put Fanny at ease, 
because it's not easy being at the

935
00:39:08,901 --> 00:39:10,643
microphone and having so many 
ideas,

936
00:39:10,643 --> 00:39:12,548
and to... Because for me it's easy,

937
00:39:12,548 --> 00:39:14,526
I interview, but you have to 
structure,

938
00:39:14,526 --> 00:39:16,623
respond, it's not such a simple 
exercise,

939
00:39:16,623 --> 00:39:19,857
and Michel really allows us to 
experience this moment serenely,

940
00:39:19,857 --> 00:39:21,770
or at least as peacefully as 
possible.

941
00:39:21,810 --> 00:39:25,071
And Michel is launching a new 
service to interview you and make

942
00:39:25,071 --> 00:39:26,952
videos, he will explain that to 
you,

943
00:39:26,952 --> 00:39:28,206
so get in touch with him.

944
00:39:28,250 --> 00:39:31,250
But podcasting is more accessible 
than you imagine.

945
00:39:31,250 --> 00:39:33,557
It's a very beautiful tool for 
yourself already,

946
00:39:33,557 --> 00:39:36,090
and for others, multifunctional and 
quite powerful.

947
00:39:36,090 --> 00:39:38,900
And it's also free speech; 
anyone can also have a presence

948
00:39:38,900 --> 00:39:41,300
through podcasting, 
because so many people have

949
00:39:41,300 --> 00:39:42,529
beautiful things to say.

950
00:39:42,730 --> 00:39:44,437
So contact The Podcast Factory Org,

951
00:39:44,437 --> 00:39:46,770
you might be surprised by what they 
can offer you.

952
00:39:46,810 --> 00:39:50,338
And thank you for this gift, 
because it's true that this podcast

953
00:39:50,338 --> 00:39:53,531
with Fanny will also exist, 
and especially thanks to this

954
00:39:53,531 --> 00:39:57,001
partnership. And it will soon be 
seven years in October that we—on

955
00:39:57,001 --> 00:40:00,122
October 1st, which is my 
birthday—it's been seven years that

956
00:40:00,122 --> 00:40:01,530
we've been collaborating.

957
00:40:01,530 --> 00:40:02,970
Thank you, thank you, 
thank you.

958
00:40:04,210 --> 00:40:06,440
See you very soon! And so to 
explain the context a bit,

959
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,044
we are here in the studio with 
Fanny and then in about fifteen

960
00:40:09,044 --> 00:40:10,608
minutes we'll follow up with Johan.

961
00:40:10,650 --> 00:40:13,425
We are going to talk about a 
podcast on procrastination,

962
00:40:13,425 --> 00:40:15,847
procrastination and sexuality, 
intimate life.

963
00:40:16,010 --> 00:40:18,082
So there you go, 
we're going to create a whole

964
00:40:18,082 --> 00:40:20,488
different world, 
and I hope we won't procrastinate

965
00:40:20,488 --> 00:40:22,330
on talking about masculinism with 
men.

966
00:40:22,930 --> 00:40:23,970
With everyone.

967
00:40:24,250 --> 00:40:25,250
With everyone.

968
00:40:25,250 --> 00:40:26,250
Entr'Nous.

969
00:40:30,170 --> 00:40:34,099
Entr'Nous, the podcast, 
to talk, about

970
00:40:34,099 --> 00:40:35,290
sexuality.

971
00:40:39,530 --> 00:40:43,933
By you, with you, 
for

972
00:40:43,933 --> 00:40:44,969
you.